Elk M1 vs. an HAI system

DELInstallations said:
I've found that Elk is more robust in the security end while HAI has a couple of stronger points in the HA side. I explain it to clients as there's Chevy and Ford. I view Elk as a security panel first that does automation and other functions, and HAI as an automation panel that does security, and you have to view which is more important to your application

the reasons stated by DEL are the reasons why I chose an ELK instead of HAI.
nobody can't put a price to human life, protection should be first, automating everything else should be something we can all live without.
Please explain how you guys think the Elk panel is a much superior burglar alarm. Sure, Elks roots are in security as Moose, but be specific as what Elk can do to protect better than an OmniPro. This isn't intended to be a debate as IMHO either one is a fine device, but there are tons of people that come here for unbiased information and without facts backing it up statements like this can be taken very seriously and misleading. So, realistically (not some arcane feature that may be used in 1 out of 1000 installs), what makes Elk a better security panel than HAI?
 
The big thing is cost, you can get a pretty nice Elk setup for less than the HAI panel, but if you compare apples to apples with hardware needed to level the playing field, then you're looking at the same cost overall.
This was it for me as the Elk is able to give me everything I need in an automation/security controller at a lower entry cost. This is because I'm not adding all the hardware that may come standard with HAI and I'm definitely not adding touch screen controllers or whole-house audio through it. However, I run a wi-fi touch screen for my A/V and will be looking to add tablets as they become cheaper and better. I'd rather have a $300 android tablet over a $1000 in-wall touch screen anyday. Also, I have whole-house audio already with my wi-fi touch screen and a media center at every TV. The only items I want to add to my panel are lighting and thermostats with some relays. The Elk gives me this at a lower price point and a reputation for being solid and reliable.
 
Since I'm a dealer and support both lines, here's my opinion, YMMV

I've found that the dealer support network to be better from NC compared to LA as a pro installer.


I think from an installation standpoint, especially in a takeover or changeout, elk wins hands down, because you can easily remote the boards and aren't stuck piggybacking on the main. The databus runs faster as well. With the exception of having to maintain proper 485 protocol or installing a retrofit hub, I like being able to drop an expander anywhere I need it or where one was already existing for the majority of the older installs out there. I also like being able to have 2 panels on the same platform, and barring a couple of minor things, be able to maintain the same parts inventory to be used across the product line.

I think the engineering that went into the Elk is more thought out than HAI, examples being the elevator terminals and being able to swap a component in seconds, rather than minutes. The troubleshooting menu and being able to view voltages, current, etc. makes installation and troubleshooting a heck of a lot easier. While I originally didn't like it, installing Elk's boards in their can really allows a very robust and large system to use a small footprint. I don't like how HAI's terminals are packed on top of each other with the 2 rows, makes cable management a PITA. I like how Elk's outputs are PTC protected and I don't need to hit a reset button if something goes wrong.

The HAI, while getting software updates, the hardware is still based off older designs and circuit boards. I originally didn't like the kidney bean keypads, but once I had a few more complex installs with multiple partitions, the F keys being programmable and easily seen/used sold me. Also like how 90% of the time, with the exception of disarming, you don't have to even open the keypad door, but it also makes for a nice, clean look.

The main thing, as a pro, is my hand is forced out of the box to pay for a panel with all those ports out of the box, even when 9/10 installs never use all of them. I like Elk's modular setup, buy what I need and easy to add when needed. HAI's panel is twice the cost of Elk's and Elk still comes out cheaper when you configure them the same. I also like being able to choose 2 different RF device manufacturers, and worst case scenario, I can also use GE's 48 zone receiver if cost is an issue or I only need a couple of points.

Sure, there's a few things that HAI has that Elk doesn't, like multiple 2 wire fire zones or slight differences between the two, which I'd love to have Elk level the playing field on.

I'm just at the point where I believe Elk has the more robust offerings from a pro install and flexibility in the burglar definitions, because HAI reminds me of the old archaic Radionics panels with their definitions and 4 choices that basically do the same thing....who uses latching perimeter zones? What about needing 4 delay time zone definitions?

I truly believe, with a few tweaks and additions to suit things like humiditiy or the ability to view and analog value easier on the keypad, like windspeed, % full (tank monitoring) or little things that irritate me as a pro, it's a minor thing, but the big thing is you can't change the architecture of the panel itself without a complete redesign of the unit. I'm a larger fan of how modular the panel itself is. The touchscreen offerings are equivalent, but the thing that is nice is being able to install the RM software on any compatible machine, and not be stuck with the OEM tablet option for automation being done remotely, like in a home theater, etc.

I've worked on the whole Moose/Aritech family tree over the years, from the old Aritech Attenders and similar, up to the 1100's, 1100E's, 1250's and all those, the panel design with the trigger outputs, relay contacts on the board...the whole deal, has been pretty much there and the same for almost 30 years. You'd laugh at how close the M1 looks to the 1100's and Attenders with trivial changes.
 
First, I do respect your opinions as a professionals doing large installs and running into many different scenarios. And I think alot of the newbies looking to make decisions really will put alot of weight into your opinions and recommendations but I want to stay focused on this one aspect for a minute. Let's throw out all the keypads and other stuff for a second and focus on the security. I still haven't heard anything that justifies calling the M1 a 'better' SECURITY system and justify panamanians comment of "nobody can't put a price to human life, protection should be first" which implies an Elk panel will protect me better.

It's great to put all these little differences out there and IMHO its these types of things that will influence a persons decision but at the end of the day people need to feel that they will be protected well and that what they bought is still a top notch uber-reliable security system. Having owned both an M1 and OmniProII I feel I could trust either one with my families safety and one is no better a security system than the other and honestly I have not heard anything yet to substantiate the opinion or comments otherwise. Until I do I think people should look at both of these products as ultra capable security systems with automation capability.

The rest of the points are debatable and can really go either way depending on your perspective.
 
I am certainly not arguing or debating as at the end of the day yo need to do what you are comfortable with, but FWIW...

...simple use of keypads to indicate items (Elk's F keys) and macros to be programmed to them, combined with some asthetics...
I do absolutely agree with that as I am not a fan of the single HAI console, BUT... what I find kind of amusing is that the HAI touchscreen offerings are very nice and blow away Elk's single offering. The argument is typically that they are alot more expensive. Now the funny part to me is doing a million $ plus home where the prewire alone is 6 digits as you stated and you are using any standard console at all. Would seem to me that place would have beautiful full function touchscreens or in wall mounted iPads everywhere. Of course you can use iPads in either system, the HAI touchscreens with automation studio is a perfect fit for high end home IMHO.

...The main thing that irks me is the design of HAI's board and lack of ability to have good cable management based on their circuit board design, which in actuality really reminds me of the old Apex destiny stuff, which was an even older design. Makes for a rats nest no matter how hard you try to keep it clean, which really is a stickler and selling point when I want my equipment and install to be a showpiece....
I see some of your cable management and installs and indeed you care and do things right. It's because of that that I wonder why you could not apply your skill and creativity to a nice HAI install if you wanted to. I think either could be made to be a nice showcase. For example, I don't think this is too bad...

HAIPanel.jpg

But like I said, you don't need to justify yourself, you just need to do whats best for you and your customers. It's just kinda humorous to me that points of price (literally just a few hundred bucks even) are reasons for not using something in super high end installs where usually the big boys like Crestron play.

...It's a ford/chevy/toyota/honda argument...
100% agree. That's why I took exception to one being a 'better' security panel than the other.
 
It's funny - I can't count how many times the question of HAI vs. Elk has come up over the years - but I've *never* seen a post go so far off topic and into a "Mine's THIS big!" competition.

I actually do want to see this play out because it's fun... but guys - can you take your pissing match to a new thread that only the "pro's" and those in for a good laugh can follow, and leave the poor Original Poster to his question? I doubt he's running a $40Mil mansion and I doubt UL will show up at his door... so lets give him the information that's relevant to his original question.

OP - I hope with all this, you've gotten the impression that either panel will accomplish exactly what you're after... There are some minor differences, but in the end, either is fine. If you have a feel for one being better than the other, go with it. In my case, it was the Elk because I have a better gut feel about them and I like their keypads better... but I would've been fine either way.
 
Yes, I do think this may have gotten slightly off topic, but I plan to purchase one or the other in the coming months and have enjoyed reading this thread as well. Having said that, I really havent seen any new information. The way I read it is that HAI offers more capability out of the box (not exactly sure what) vs. having to buy additional modules with the Elk. HAI [arguably] has a better touchscreen interface, and can be directly integrated with Whole Home Audio (Hi-Fi) and Security Cameras (Surveillance) where it seems as if this is not the case with Elk. Having said that, I am still not sure what other differences exist.

While I haven't seen HAI's Hi-Fi or Surveillance packages in action, I just assume to go with a Nuvo Whole Home Audio solution, and a GeoVision or Avermedia (Surveillance) DVR setup, and have it all tied together with CQC (I bought a license a few months ago) or other. If that is the case, I probably wont be using HAI's touchscreens at all, as I may end up with Android tablets.

I dont know if there is any particular reason for me to choose HAI over Elk, and I may want to go with an Elk if it's going to cost me less in the long run due to features I would have paid for with the HAI system that I may never use. I am not sure about the OP, but I would certainly like some clarity in this area, which I think would help me make a decision on one or the other.

The ONLY other difference that I have seen mentioned is the UL listing. For me personally, I really dont care one way or another, assuming the panel is going to work 100% of the time - and I think the HAI will, else problems would have already been reported. However, the reason it doesnt matter to me is the fact that I am the homeowner, and I am also going to be the installer. I, personally, dont have to meet stringent codes as the home owner, and possibly more specific, in my area. I have mentioned this previously in other threads on this board, but I think it may be worth stating again for those who may be looking to DIY install their own as well - note YMMV. When our home was being built, I was given the opportunity to pull speaker and alarm wiring the weekend before the drywall went up (due to timing of our bid on the house, which was already in construction). The following Monday the builder's Realtor called my Realtor and basically instructed me to pull a permit for the alarm installation. Conforming to their wishes [demands] I did. When the inspector came out, I spoke to him for a few minutes prior to walking him in - I explained that I was the home owner. He immediately questioned why I pulled a permit for the alarm installation, stating that as the home owner I could do the installation without a permit. However, being that I had pulled the permit, he was required to take a look. He asked where the panel was, and I walked him that way. He took a 2-second look and asked where the transformer (to power the panel) was going to be located, which was just around the corner. He then told me that the only thing he was looking for was to ensure that the transformer was not installed in the alarm panel. Again, YMMV, but what I took away from that is the fact that I am the home owner, I am liable for what I install.
 
While the UL situation is important (need to make sure that there are no misunderstandings now), it has been moved into its own topic here.
 
I'd like to thank DELInstallations for the info in this thread, and some of the other ones. He constantly has some great information.
 
Well I didn't really see this thread as a pissing match. Anyway, my real motivation for posting was to clear up any misconceptions that the Elk panel was somehow a 'better' or 'safer' SECURITY system than HAI and I think that point was made albeit with perhaps some extras.

And these points have also been covered in other threads (hence my original recommendation to the OP to search them and come back with specific questions) but since it's being asked specifically here, I will reply with some specifics:

Having said that, I really havent seen any new information. The way I read it is that HAI offers more capability out of the box (not exactly sure what) vs. having to buy additional modules with the Elk. HAI [arguably] has a better touchscreen interface, and can be directly integrated with Whole Home Audio (Hi-Fi) and Security Cameras (Surveillance) where it seems as if this is not the case with Elk. Having said that, I am still not sure what other differences exist.
You're right, nothing really new here. It's documented but some main differences in the 2 main boards are: HAI has embedded ethernet, no need for XEP. Be aware though that the XEP does support email if you add it, HAI will not support email on main board. But me personally I do email via software anyway. The other difference is HAI has 5 serial ports onboard to be used for lighting and other 3rd party interfaces. Each serial port is equivalent to one XSP. Granted, you may never need all 5, but they are there. Yes, HAI has their own camera and dvr (surveillance) and HiFi stuff which is good if you just want the one stop easy integration but most of the stuff can be done with Elk as well using 3rd party. And for voice Elk actually wins since its all built in, with HAI you need to add the two-way audio board to get voice, but you also get two-way audio if you want it (separate kit for Elk).

Having said that, I dont know if there is any particular reason for me to choose HAI over Elk, and I may want to go with an Elk if it's going to cost me less in the long run due to features I would have paid for with the HAI system that I may never use. I am not sure about the OP, but I would certainly like some clarity in this area, which I think would help me make a decision on one or the other.
I've highlighted the main items, you can do the math based on what you need and see where the prices fall. The only thing IMHO you may not use is a few serial ports.

As stated, its a tough decision. It's as stated, Ford or Chevy and both in Motor Trend Top 5. Which option packages do you want? Do you want to get it all in one place, etc. Can't go wrong with either.
 
It's a 50" Channel Vision Can (whole can not shown in that pic) and the duct is from AutomationDirect.com. I'll post a gallery with the whole thing at some point.
 
All, I want to publicly take back my comments and offer an apology. I do want to see things stay on topic and we should all clearly identify what's fact and what's personal opinion... just for good practice - but I feel like I was out of line for my comments. CT is a great place to share information and I'm glad to be a part of it.

Fact based discussions are what this should be all about. We all have different requirements... but if I were dealing with a few different AHJ's, I'd want people like Digger, Panamanian, DELInstallations and others on my side.
 
All, I want to publicly take back my comments and offer an apology. I do want to see things stay on topic and we should all clearly identify what's fact and what's personal opinion... just for good practice - but I feel like I was out of line for my comments. CT is a great place to share information and I'm glad to be a part of it.

Fact based discussions are what this should be all about. We all have different requirements... but if I were dealing with a few different AHJ's, I'd want people like Digger, Panamanian, DELInstallations and others on my side.

Any time brother
 
Quick question regarding the ELK-M1 and the XEP... If you connect the XEP to a hub/switch/router, can it see Serial-to-IP devices such as a Lantronix or Comtrol?
 
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