Expansion card startup questions

[Ira]

I have three zones on a zone expander (in a different HA can about 200' from the M1G) defined as non-alarm zones, normally closed. I use them to tell me when my water well pump is running, when my standby genset is running, and when my water softener is regenerating. I have M1G rules set up to email me whenever the zone states change. I also have events defined in CQC that will email me whenever the zone states (for the same three zones) change. So for example, when my genset starts (zone state changes to secure), I get an email from the M1G and from CQC telling me that it started. Likewise, when it stops.

A couple of days ago, I got emails from the M1G at 3:08AM telling me that all three zones had gone back to "normal states", i.e., the genset stopped, the water well pump stopped, and the water softener regeneration stopped. The problem is that none had been running. At 10:03AM the same day, I got an email from the M1G that the genset had stopped, again, even though it hadn't been running. The other odd thing is that I did not receive any of the corresponding emails from CQC, so CQC wasn't notified of any zone state changes.

So I looked at the M1G log using RP2, and the following log record was written at 3:08AM and again at 10:03AM...

Mon 11/28/2011 03:08 1367 = SYSTEM START UP Input Exp. 12

So the questions are...

1. What does the log record really mean? Is my zone expander going bad?
2. Why did I only get the M1G email for the genset state change the second time this happened?
3. Why didn't I get any CQC emails?
4. Is there a way to set up rules so that I won't get any M1G emails during this condition? I already have a "1 minute delay" built into the rules during M1G system startup, but I guess that doesn't help for expansion card startups.

Thanks,
Ira

 

[wuench]

What other events are in the log? Does it look like the M1 rebooted, lost power? There is some unique things that happen to the zones on system startup that might be triggering your rules if it restarted. Spanky explained it in a thread, I think the zones go into bypass on system startup and their states may change.

 

[Ira]

The next older entry was fifteen days earlier. The next newer entry was nine hours after the 10:03AM zone expander startup event record, and that was a log record showing me using RP2.

I know about the issues on M1G startup. See comment in question #4 above.

 

[Del91574]

Could be a power issue causing the remote board to go down. System startup refers to the board powering up and then going through it's boot setup.

I can't remember the numbers, but I want to say the boards need greater than 12V, something like 12.5 as a minimum otherwise they can lose communication.

I had a similar issue on a large install where I was forced to use existing cabling between buildings and I had the common negative lift and the power supply I had spec'ed on the remote buildings/panels didn't play well with the Elk LB cutoff switch as well as they had voltage drop when running on a battery only.

 

[Ira]

That's probably worth checking on. The remote board is probably 200' (cat 5e cable) from the M1G (thru several DBH's), and that's where it is getting its power. Can I add a power supply to the remote can to power the expander boards? If so, how does the common negative come into play?

The remote can has a DBH, and the boards are getting power thru the DBH's connection to the previous DBH in the chain. In all there are four DBH's on the chain, and the one in this particular can is the last one. Also, I have a UPS near the can for other devices in the can.

Thanks,
Ira

 

[apostolakisl]

That's probably worth checking on. The remote board is probably 200' (cat 5e cable) from the M1G (thru several DBH's), and that's where it is getting its power. Can I add a power supply to the remote can to power the expander boards? If so, how does the common negative come into play?

The remote can has a DBH, and the boards are getting power thru the DBH's connection to the previous DBH in the chain. In all there are four DBH's on the chain, and the one in this particular can is the last one. Also, I have a UPS near the can for other devices in the can.

Thanks,
Ira

Yes, you can add a remote power supply at the expansion board. According to the Elk manual, you are supposed to tie Elk's common in with the local power supply common. The local power supply hot goes only to the auxillary board.

 

[Del91574]

Best way to do it, now that it's available, would be to install a 212S, then I'd be looking at shedding the load since it sounds like you've got a lot of voltage drop with multiple devices daisy chained through multiple hubs.

I had to go another route using an Altronix supply and then tie it's supervision contacts to a XIN.

 

[Ira]

Looking at the P212S documentation...it looks like a backup battery is required. Any way to run without the battery and not see the alarms? I've got a regular UPS next to the can, and I would like to power the PS from there. The remote can is not monitoring/doing anything critical. If I don't really care about the PS being supervised, is there anything wrong with just using a regulated 12Vdc wall wart (that can handle the necessary current) plugged into the UPS?

 

[apostolakisl]

Looking at the P212S documentation...it looks like a backup battery is required. Any way to run without the battery and not see the alarms? I've got a regular UPS next to the can, and I would like to power the PS from there. The remote can is not monitoring/doing anything critical. If I don't really care about the PS being supervised, is there anything wrong with just using a regulated 12Vdc wall wart (that can handle the necessary current) plugged into the UPS?

You will get an alert from elk that it lost comm should the power go out. If that doesn't bother you, then no big woop. When the power returns, it will re-integrate with Elk. I have a relay output expansion board powered separately and when I have taken the power offline, that is what happens. However, I do have the aux power on a UPS so unless I have a long power outage, I shouldn't get that warning. I have only taken the power offline to do some wire rerouting.

 

[Del91574]

Honestly, given the details so far, I'd do a load calc, because something sounds fishy, like exceeding the current draw available or something similar.

 

[apostolakisl]

If you want tons of amps of high quality juice, do what I did. Use an ATX power supply for your 12v.

However, you may still have issue if you have your power daisy chained together. After a couple thousand feet of tiny little cat5, you will definitely see a voltage drop.

Have you tried measuring the voltage at the last device in your daisy chain?

While you need to daisy chain your rs485 comm wires, you don't need to daisy chain the power wire. Those can all be in parrallel and then you won't get the voltage drop.

 

[Digger]

I suspect this has nothing to do with hardware. I believe that there is firmware in beta testing to fix a bug that can cause an expander board to go into trouble momentarily (seconds) and then restore. You may want to call ELK tech support or your dealer to discuss this.

I just connected to one of my customers with this type of problem and looked at the log and I saw that they had their Keypad 3 go into trouble at 1:15 am, 2:03 am, 2:25 am and 7:03 am today. Before I heard about the bug I replaced the keypad and data buss hub and reran the wire since all of the keypads beep whenever this happens waking them up if its the middle of the night. Their patience is wearing thin on this so I hope the firmware is released ASAP. I already ate the cost of the replacement keypad, data buss hub and the time to rerun the wire originally thinking it was a hardware problem because it was very difficult to troubleshoot such random faults when you have limited access to the customers house.

Firmware bugs happen and in reality there are not many significant ones with ELK over the years so I dont want to sound like I am complaining to much.

It would be nice if ELK put beta firmware out there for anyone as long as its clearly noted as beta. This way anyone can know about what is in the works without having to call them and ask and use the beta firmware at their own risk.

 

[Digger]

Could be a power issue causing the remote board to go down. System startup refers to the board powering up and then going through it's boot setup.

I can't remember the numbers, but I want to say the boards need greater than 12V, something like 12.5 as a minimum otherwise they can lose communication.

I had a similar issue on a large install where I was forced to use existing cabling between buildings and I had the common negative lift and the power supply I had spec'ed on the remote buildings/panels didn't play well with the Elk LB cutoff switch as well as they had voltage drop when running on a battery only.

The ELK-M1XIN is required to work at 85% to 110% of is rated voltage to meet its UL Listing requirements. That being said the expander should work fine at 10.5 Vdc. While not a rating that ELK is claiming I believe I remember it working fine even lower than that when I tested it but always stay within the the mfg stated ratings.

 

[WayneW]

I suspect this has nothing to do with hardware. I believe that there is firmware in beta testing to fix a bug that can cause an expander board to go into trouble momentarily (seconds) and then restore. You may want to call ELK tech support or your dealer to discuss this.

I believe I might be the reporter (& chief investigator) of this issue. I believe it started around November 2010. In my experience this is solely related to output expanders and has never affected keypads or input expanders or XSPs. The beta release notes imply this also ("Fixed output expander missing timer."). But only Elk themselves know the real details of the issue and the changes.

 

[Digger]

I believe I might be the reporter (& chief investigator) of this issue. I believe it started around November 2010. In my experience this is solely related to output expanders and has never affected keypads or input expanders or XSPs. The beta release notes imply this also ("Fixed output expander missing timer."). But only Elk themselves know the real details of the issue and the changes.

I think Ira should call ELK and find out in regards to his system. I spoke to a local distributor weeks ago who had told me about this beta firmware. I think it was also in another thread.

I hate chasing gremlins.