Geofence the wife?

[BraveSirRobbin]

My issue is not detecting when she is home, I need to know when she is 2 miles away because the pump needs 5 min (at least) to heat the pipes.

 

dipaliti:
 
Did you read my post #7 above?
 
I have a tasker task that trigger Elk outputs with (an older version) of HomeSeer.  The How-To I linked gives a pretty good step by step guide on creating a task with tasker based on the HTML "GET" or "POST" functions.
 
I also know (though I have not done this myself) that you can create a "Profile" on Tasker that will trigger an event based on GPS location.  You can easily pull up a google map inside Tasker, select your house, then select the circle of detection around your house (3KM or 4KM sounds like what you will need).
 
It is a shame that the M1ToGo software is so buggy and doesn't seem to use the GET or POST functions (when I fired it up while Fiddler was running, I did not see ANY logging).
 
You can use any software addition to the Elk as long as you can use the GET or POST HTML functions to interface with it (perhaps Elve does this as it is FREE now?).
 
IF you don't want to use the methodology described above, I do have a stand alone solution that would involve spending a bit over a C-Note, but should work.
 
You can get a WebRelay device to trigger your pump.  This device uses the GET HTML function to trigger a relay output as shown in manual (see section 3.3.3).
 
You can also continue to trigger this WebRelay via the Elk output but instead of directly attaching to the pump, your Elk output relay would trigger an input toggle to the WebRelay, and a task would be created (inside of that WebRelay) to toggle its output connected to the pump.
 
You can select a momentary closure from a few seconds to a day with the WebRelay.  I believe they even make a mobile app so an Android device can directly control and see the state of the unit manually.  Note that this solution does not involve a computer!
 
If you want, I have an older WebRelay Dual LS model sitting here that I could lend you for a couple of weeks to see if this works out provided:
 
1. You give it back!
2. You write up your solution as a DETAILED step by step How-To here for others to learn from
 
 
 
 

 

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

dipaliti:
 
Here is an update of my suggestion above.
 
I connected a WebRelay to my network and gave it an ip of 192.168.1.3:3333 (note that I don't use the standard port 80 here).  The WebRelay is setup for a username and password.  Test the outputs and ensure you can trigger them via the WebRelay's internal webserver.
 
I have my Android phone on my local WiFi for this test, but you can just create a myDns account and port forward this address to work outside of your local network (then you would reaplace your myDns name instead of the internal 192.168.1.3 IP address).
 
I have Tasker installed and started the app.
 
I created a test task by going to the TASKS screen.
Click on the "+" sign on the lower right and name this task (I called it WebRelay)
Click on the lower right set of 'squares' to select an icon for this task.
Click on the "+" sign to enter an action for this task
Select "NET" action catagory
Select "HTTP Get" as the net action
in the "Serverort" line I entered:
 

 
where "username" is the username of the WebRelay device and "password" is of course the WebRelay password for this user.
 
Note that I got this GET script by using the Fiddler2 software as described in the How-To I linked in an earlier post.
 
Press the upper left Tasker icon to get back to the previous screen that lists your tasks.
 
LONG PRESS the tasker icon in the upper left.  This icon's color should go from grey to yellow (this is important as it activates Tasker to run in the background).  You should also see a tasker 'bolt' icon in your upper left display bar (where the time, battery, WiFi, etc... icons are).
 
I the clicked on the 'back' button on the lower right of my Galaxy S4 phone to get out of the Tasker application (your phone may have a different location for this function).
 
On the main Android screen install a Widget to trigger this task by long pressing on a home screen.  Select the "Widgets" tab.
 
Select the Tasker icon widget labeled as 'Task' and place it on your home screen.
 
Select the name of the event you want associated with this widget.
 
Press the widget to fire the event.
 
That's it.  Once your event is working you can then set it up in Tasker to trigger via a Profile based on GPS location (this is pretty self explanatory).
 
So. based on this testing I really don't see why this would not work for your application.
 
SECOND UPDATE:
 
I had to go out for some errands, but before I did I created a Tasker task via HomeSeer that just sent me an email.  I then linked this to a Tasker "location" profile and set the location to an intersection that I would cross with a radius of about 500 meters.
 
When I entered this intersection I did indeed get my email, showing that you can trigger an event in Tasker based on GPS location.  The only thing to watch is make sure your radius is large enough so you don't drive through it (especially at highway speeds) so fast that the GPS doesn't have time to properly detect and report the phone's location.

 

[NeverDie]

Thanks, BraveSirRobbin for your post.   A+.

 

[JimS]

APRS could be used but a ham license is required.  And I am not sure about putting this in a vehicle where a licensee is not in the vehicle when it is transmitting - probably a gray area...  And there is some cost for the equipment.
 
200' loop is pretty long - I assume that it is 100' one way .  Put a small heater at the other end of the loop and/or get a bigger pump so it can get the loop hot quicker.
 
3/4 pipe is 0.023 gallons per foot (varies somewhat depending on type of pipe) so 100' is 2.3 gallons.  Doubling that to 5 gpm is not a large pump.  But it will use more power to run continuously.
 
Here I have 1" copper pipe to the master bath for a large shower with a 1/2" return line.  Length one way is about 25 -30 feet.  I put in a 1/40 hp pump and can heat the loop in about 20 - 30 seconds.   There is a push button in the bath that can be pushed when hot water is needed - pump never runs unless button is pushed.  Wife was skeptical at first but thinks it is great now.  (Although I must admit she likes to brag about our low utility bills.  )
 
!00' of 3/4" holds about twice the volume of water as 25' of 1" pipe.  With the same pump it should deliver hot water in twice the time.  About a minute.  Maybe the copper pipe is taking most of the heat of the water to warm it up?  Still, 5 minutes seems long.  Maybe you should replace the run with PEX which would not take the heat from the water and provide some insulation as well.
 
I can't see why having fully hot water the second you walk in the door is really needed.  But that's more of a personal choice...

 

[dpilati]

So the wife does come inside and wash her hands right away. Complete transparency is needed.
 
My thought is to have a "guest" mode on Homeseer (don't have yet) for when there are guests in the house.
 
I've thought of increasing the pump size but that isn't a cheap fix at all. Yes 2.3 gallons is what my calcs are. I can only imagine the pump is a 15 gph pump since it really takes almost 10 minutes to fill the loop. The final stop is a guest bathroom and that is no big deal. The powder room is about 5 minutes. I presume I could handle a big pump by turning it on for 2 minutes and then off 15 when people are home. 
 
All very helpful posts. Need to buy Tasker and try it out (as well as Homeseer). 
 
It is pex pipe - no copper to heat up. Just a really small pump. 

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Just for grins, I loaded up Elve and conneected it to my Elk M1 (all of this took like ten minutes).
 
I ran Fiddler and turned on an output (via the Elve webserver) and noticed it also uses the GET method:
 
 
 

GET /Sample-J9SP2/outputs.j9sp?action=on&deviceIndex=0&outputID=19 HTTP/1.1
 
Elve is FREE btw!
 
If this were me, and as important as this seems to be in your household/situation, I think I would want a computer free solution though.

 

[pete_c]

+1 BSR
 
@ dpilati
 
Read your OP; follow the thread one post at a time; baby steps. 
 
All your answers are here.
 
Earlier I mentioned using Homeseer.  I am currently only using Homeseer 2 in "production"; now splitting the work between two Homeseer 2 servers. (I pushed on one too much a couple of years ago).
 
I have been using Homeseer now since around 1998. 
 
That said Homeseer 3 is not currently providing the functionality that I have with Homeseer 2. 
 
Really hate using the term "hoodwinked"; but it does come to mind more often lately; maybe because I am curmudgeon these days.

 

[ano]

You really have to love how home automation people take a simple problem and make it so complex.  Why not track the GPS on her phone then use predictive algorithms on her direction and speed to determine if the water pump needs to be started based on the probability she will wash her hands, using the outside weather conditions, the electric rates in effect, and the temperature surrounding the pipes?  You of course will want to track if she is drinking a beverage, because that will change the odds she will need to wash her hands. 
 
Or you could just buy this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ariston-2-5-gal-6-Year-1500W-120-Volt-Point-of-Use-Mini-Electric-Water-Heater-GL2-5S/100051412

 

[JimS]

+1 
 

Or you could just buy this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ariston-2-5-gal-6-Year-1500W-120-Volt-Point-of-Use-Mini-Electric-Water-Heater-GL2-5S/100051412

 

[tmbrown97]

I gotta say I had the same thought about the Point-of-use hot water heater inside the door where she'd first wash her hands giving the rest of the house time to get caught up.

 

[wkearney99]

You really have to love how home automation people take a simple problem and make it so complex.  Why not track the GPS on her phone then use predictive algorithms...

 
Somehow this reminds me of a Monty Python skit:

Bridgekeeper: What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?[/size]
King Arthur: What do you mean? An African or European swallow?

That said, I think there's more to be gained with automation by learning patterns and applying them instead of more rigid means. With a more accessible means to override without making a mess. Not that any of the existing systems are doing effective job of this, however.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

So, let me get this straight.  You want the OP to install a point of use system for $170, plus tax, plus fittings in lieu of a solution that only turns on a small recirc pump on demand?
 
Remember, the main point of starting this thread was to save money (i.e. this is why he doesn't want to run the recirc pump all the time).
 
Your solution places a device that draws over 12 amps when on, AND will heat that water periodically throughout the 24 hours).
 
Again, not sure on this, but somehow I don't see this as a benefit to the OP's main emphasis as the recirc pump should only draw an amp or two, and is only on for very short periods of time (he mentions how cheap it is to run the recirc pump in THIS post above).
 
I also admit I know very little and have no experience with a point of use system!

 

[Automate]

I've thought of increasing the pump size but that isn't a cheap fix at all. Yes 2.3 gallons is what my calcs are. I can only imagine the pump is a 15 gph pump since it really takes almost 10 minutes to fill the loop. The final stop is a guest bathroom and that is no big deal. The powder room is about 5 minutes. I presume I could handle a big pump by turning it on for 2 minutes and then off 15 when people are home. 

You could add a second small pump in parallel with your current pump.  Should cut the time in almost half.  Maybe shorten it enough that her being in WiFi range would give enough time.  Then after 5 minutes or so you could turn off one pump.

 

[Automate]

So, let me get this straight.  You want the OP to install a point of use system for $170, plus tax, plus fittings in lieu of a solution that only turns on a small recirc pump on demand?
 
Remember, the main point of starting this thread was to save money (i.e. this is why he doesn't want to run the recirc pump all the time).
 
Your solution places a device that draws over 12 amps when on, AND will heat that water periodically throughout the 24 hours).
 
Again, not sure on this, but somehow I don't see this as a benefit to the OP's main emphasis as the recirc pump should only draw an amp or two, and is only on for very short periods of time.
 
I also admit I know very little and have no experience with a point of use system!

 
Actually OP is mainly trying to reduce the heat losses from the circulation but you have a valid point.
 
Installing the PoU heater may not be easy and the cost will be more than the heater price..  I think the bathroom in question is a powder room so it may have a pedestal sink with no cabinet.  So the heater would have to go in the basement or crawl space.  It will need a dedicated circuit back to the breaker panel.  If not done DIY, the installation may need to be checked by the city/county inspector and my guess a contractor would charge around $500 total cost.
 
And after all of this if anyone wants to use a different sink then you still have the same problem.  Doing all the sinks will really add to the cost.

 

[JimS]

So, let me get this straight.  You want the OP to install a point of use system for $170, plus tax, plus fittings in lieu of a solution that only turns on a small recirc pump on demand?
 
Remember, the main point of starting this thread was to save money (i.e. this is why he doesn't want to run the recirc pump all the time).
 
Your solution places a device that draws over 12 amps when on, AND will heat that water periodically throughout the 24 hours).
 
Again, not sure on this, but somehow I don't see this as a benefit to the OP's main emphasis as the recirc pump should only draw an amp or two, and is only on for very short periods of time (he mentions how cheap it is to run the recirc pump in THIS post above).

 
The point is he has huge heat loss in the loop when running the small circ pump, which runs most of the time now. This is very typical of recirc systems that are run continually. The power of the pump itself is virtually nothing by comparison:
 

The heat loss is easy to detect. It is electric hot water heater and I have a monitor on it. It runs just at a kw of losses or 16 kwh a day if I run it 16 hours a day. The loop is about 200 ft of 3/4 in pipe - insulated where I could. I have run the pump when the house is empty and no one using hot water and compared to not running the pump with an empty house - the tank itself does lose about 1 kwh per day

The power to run the small tank heater will be less than the loop losses. Even at $0.12/kWh (among the lower rates in the US I think) the cost to run the circ pump for 16 hours a day is about $2/day. That's more than for my 62 gal heater so the smaller tank very likely will be less. Given the facts presented it appears the cost of the small tank heater and the cost of energy for it will pay for itself in a year or less. Yes, it draws 1500W when on but it is only on for short periods.

Automate is right in that if there is a need for instant hot water at other faucets then more heaters are needed and this solution is not nearly as attractive. And installation could add significantly to the cost if not DIY.