Get rid of Insteon and switch to Zwave ? Need help

[MiB]

Need some help from you guys.

Just bought and received about $900 worth of Insteon switches last week.
2 APs, PLM, Lamplincs, Switchlincs and Keypadlincs ect.
APs worked fine at first, then started acting up/blinking fast. PLM locked up 3 times already and one of the switchlincs is mechanicly sporadic.
I'm not impressed and really want to return it all back to Smarthome before the 30 days are up.


I'd like to get our home setup using Zwave (mostly ViziaRF). Couple of questions.

1. Is there a Zwave multi button scene wall switch/dimmer that also controls local load like an Insteon Keypadlinc ?

2. Insteon Switchlincs can be used on low voltage lighting (we have MR16 pot lights all over the house).
Is my only Zwave option the really expensive $120+ low voltage switches ?

 

[MikeB]

2 APs, PLM, Lamplincs, Switchlincs and Keypadlincs ect.
APs worked fine at first, then started acting up/blinking fast. PLM locked up 3 times already and one of the switchlincs is mechanicly sporadic.

What application or device are you using with the PLM? How do you know if the APs are "acting up"? What are they doing or not doing? Blinking light usually indicates traffic, either intentional or powerline noise.

1. Is there a Zwave multi button scene wall switch/dimmer that also controls local load like an Insteon Keypadlinc ?

Not that I'm aware of. The Leviton zone and scene controllers do not control a load, and I don't believe the Intermatics do either.

 

[MiB]

First some background.

In our recent construction home (3yrs old) I've had a 15 to 20 device X10 setup consisting mainly of wall switches and lamp modules working at 95% for the last 2 yrs all controlled by a CM11a. Every so often a light or lamp here and there wouldn't fire up during an 'evening on' macro or would be left on because it failed during the 'evening off' macro. For the most part it's been good.

Last few months our needs of more switches and modules prompted me to look for a newer more robust product/protocol to grow into.
I ended up ordering a bunch of Insteon stuff from SH during their recent 20% off sale.

We have a server (2003) running 24/7 and I'm evaluating both mControl and HS so I ordered the 2412S PLM.

Digger:
Is the new/updated PLM a 2412S ? (I've only had mine for about 10 days so I would think they'd exchange it for a newer version)

I read about the new improved switchlincs, which was one of the reasons I ordered the insteon stuff.
I'm sure they'll exchange the defective one I got, but do I really want another one if I already know it's going to fail again in the future ?
I was thinking I'd be better off changing over to Zwave (ViziaRF), but having a hard time finding the equivalent Zwave equipment.

Since I'm still within the intial 30 days trial satisfaction period i'd like to return the insteon stuff.

MikeB

Think I answered your question (above) on what setup I'm using the PLM with.
I've had to unplug and reset it several times after it locked up and became unresponsive and further will not control any of my X10 devices either as advertised. I've had to go back to using the CM11a for X10.

I initially linked the APs to each other as per instructions. Both unit's lights when dim and steady as expected.
2 days later one AP is blinking brightly (lost link to other AP?). I relinked them, same problem next day. Moved them to different outlets.
Same issue 2 days later.



Zwave switches and scene controllers

I don't get it.
The Vizia 4 button scene/zone controllers need to be installed in a wall box, but don't seem to control a local load.
How many people have extra wall boxes that aren't being used to control local loads ?

Both the switchlincs and keypadlincs are said to be ok to use for local load incandescent as well as low voltage lighting control at $45 each.
Why is there such a huge price difference with the Zwave (Vizia) switches for incandescent at around $65 and low voltage at $150+.

Having so many low voltage MR16 pot lights around the house, I'm not willing to pay $150 per wall switch.
Am I missing something ?

 

[Rupp]

Act is supposed to be releasing a new multi-button switch that controls the load.

 

[MikeB]

Is the new/updated PLM a 2412S ? (I've only had mine for about 10 days so I would think they'd exchange it for a newer version)

Yes, he's referring to a newer firmware release for the same PLM. They will swap it for you I'm sure. The new firmware is FIRM61. The old one with the lockup issues is FIRM52.

I read about the new improved switchlincs, which was one of the reasons I ordered the insteon stuff.
I'm sure they'll exchange the defective one I got, but do I really want another one if I already know it's going to fail again in the future ?

In the past, some users reported high failure rates for the SwitchLinc products, due to a switch failure. SmartHome determined the fix was to incorporate an updated tact switch in their products. If your SwitchLinc Dimmers are v3.2 or higher, they have the updated tact switch.

Obviously, bad units out of the box is never a good thing, but it can happen with any product.

Think I answered your question (above) on what setup I'm using the PLM with.

I have read about excessive lockups using HomeSeer's Insteon PLM driver. I can't speak for HomeSeer, because I've never used it, but I can speak for CQC and the ISY-26 (which I currently use). The PLM did lockup for me a couple times during initial Insteon programming with heavy powerline activity, but not during normal day-to-day use. HomeSeer seems particularly sensitive to PLM lockups, since HomeSeer users seem to have vastly more issues than other products that use the PLM I've seen. Beta versions of the updated PLM firmware seems to have fixed any lockup issues with the ISY-26, but I can't say whether or not it will help with HomeSeer. The new PLM firmware has been out for under a week I believe, so I'm sure it will take some time to get feedback.

and further will not control any of my X10 devices either as advertised.

I can send and receive X10 signals with the PLM and my ISY-26. Does the HomeSeer driver support X10 through the PLM?

I initially linked the APs to each other as per instructions. Both unit's lights when dim and steady as expected.
2 days later one AP is blinking brightly (lost link to other AP?). I relinked them, same problem next day. Moved them to different outlets.
Same issue 2 days later.

There are no links created to or from AccessPoints. The initial procedure outlined in their manual is simply to determine of your 2 AccessPoints are on opposite phases in your home. Blinking of the LED is indicative of traffic on the powerline. You might want to try and figure out what is causing that traffic...

I don't get it.
The Vizia 4 button scene/zone controllers need to be installed in a wall box, but don't seem to control a local load.
How many people have extra wall boxes that aren't being used to control local loads ?

I agree. There are some instances where I have a KeypadLinc with no load, but most cases I do need the load control.

 

[MiB]

I am at work and dont have a PLM here so I cant verify the model number. They supposedly released new firmware this week to correct the PLM lockup issue (not officially announced so I might be mistaken). Since you are on the fence with this and still within the 30 days maybe ask SH if they will overnight a new one?? (I will probably get flamed for saying that).

I would hope that the defective switch is not the new design but some old stock. If it is the old stock just insist on the a newer one as the replacement. If its the new stock hopefully it is a fluke.

I dont want to try and talk you out of abandoning it just in case its really not what you want. I am only trying to suggest you call them and ask if they will try and work it out so you can feel comfortable you wont feel like you got screwed should you decide to give it a try.

I just checked the stuff I received again.

All 8 of the switchlincs (2476D) I received all say V3.2, which MikeB says are the latest versions with updated tact switch so I dunno if the it's just bad luck with a mechanical failure after a week, or if they didn't really solve the issue with the previous version.

 

[shenandoah75]

"I don't get it. The Vizia 4 button scene/zone controllers need to be installed in a wall box, but don't seem to control a local load.
How many people have extra wall boxes that aren't being used to control local loads ?"


I plan to add 5 such scene controllers to my house. I have already installed three. For my other two locations, i plan on significant remodeling (kitchen / back porch) anyway and will be adding wiring/switches for both locations anyway...

The three installed locations had existing 2/3 gang jboxes. One had a switch to a ceiling fan that wasn't in use, no issue - replaced. The other two were removed by trusty friend the milwalkee sawzall and replaced with an 4/3 gang jboxes of the remodel variety instead. Roughly an hour each and i work slow (ask my wife!). If you are careful, you can cut the nails anchoring most boxes without destroying any drywall or requiring patch time. Be careful about not only going to low or high but shooting out the other side of the wall.

Luckily the electricians put neutrals in all boxes and left enough length on the grounds to make all this easier on me.


I don't want this to come off wrong, but although i understand the complaint/comparison, this should not on its own be a basis for a competent DIY-er choosing another solution over Zwave/Vizia if you're happy with the other aspects of the latter...


good luck
-brad

 

[MiB]

Act is supposed to be releasing a new multi-button switch that controls the load.

Thanks Rupp ! I'll keep a lookout for them.
You'd think this would have been a no brainer for Leviton's ViziaRF 4 button controller to include local load control.
What were they thinking ?

Unless you're home is under construction or renovation, I don't know too many people that would have a spare wall box that doesn't already serve as a local load control.

As an example my wife wants me to setup all the kitchen lights which include ceiling LV pot lights, island LV lighting, under counter LV halogens, cooktop LV hallogen, etc that all come on in the evening at 50%. Then setup a multibutton scene switch for 'cooking', 'dinning' 'cleanup' 'all off' etc. Would be simple to set this up with a scene controller that also serves to control one of the local loads.

 

[shenandoah75]

BTW - following up from my last post, though i understand the argument on this point, i personally disagree with it in every case i can think of in my house...

using my front door three gang example (front porch 1 & 2 and foyer 3/way as originally installed), i would not want any of those three loads to be local to the scene controller only as i wouldn't want to give up one of the four buttons for control of those loads standalone, and i want the ability to control seperately/individually from the scenes defined as well.

Same with the controllers in my bathroom and the ones for the kitchen/porch.

Adding a bigger box was worth it in all locations as i like having 4 full / flexible scene commands in all locations without the load dependancy... Ya cost decreas might have been nice, but i'm out 3K in this solution anyway, what's a few more bucks




To which i have to disagree with your last post that a local load would make defining your scenes any simpler than without that capability. Might be more ugly with an addition gang space (as it will be for me - i'm going to likely need a 4 gang and a single gang next to it due to stud spacing on the wall in question). But that's not a question of simplicity

 

[MikeB]

The other two were removed by trusty friend the milwalkee sawzall and replaced with an 4/3 gang jboxes of the remodel variety instead. Roughly an hour each and i work slow (ask my wife!). If you are careful, you can cut the nails anchoring most boxes without destroying any drywall or requiring patch time. Be careful about not only going to low or high but shooting out the other side of the wall.

I had real good luck with this as well for areas I needed to add an additional space. Much easier than I expected - I was able to pry the nails out of the studs, and break the existing box apart before pulling it out. No drywall repair needed!

I think some people prefer the look of a single keypad on the wall, rather than multiple gangs of switches. I personally prefer a normal decora switch for main light control, and a KeypadLinc in addition where I need remote light and scene controls.

But, there are still places where I needed to control a load with the keypad. I don't mind turning a 1-gang switch location to a 2-gang location in most cases, but I DON'T want to turn a 3-gang location into a 4-gang location.

 

[shenandoah75]

But, there are still places where I needed to control a load with the keypad. I don't mind turning a 1-gang switch location to a 2-gang location in most cases, but I DON'T want to turn a 3-gang location into a 4-gang location.

hehe - actually the four gang was perfect for me in the foyer because it actually was closer to being centered on the wall once installed and made the mirror hung above it look better once it was moved over but i understand your point (i'm really dreading the 4 + 1 look in my kitchen) - maybe i'll hide the new magnetic switches on the other side of the wall in the garage (but then loss of individual control defeats my prior point)... hmmm

 

[MiB]

Yes, he's referring to a newer firmware release for the same PLM. They will swap it for you I'm sure. The new firmware is FIRM61. The old one with the lockup issues is FIRM52.

Just checked my 2412S PLM says 3207Firm52 Rev 2.4, I've had it for 10 days. So there's a newer Firm61 for the lockup issues?
Anything else changed on the newer rev besides firmware. I seem to remember reading something last night about more memory being added to it.

In the past, some users reported high failure rates for the SwitchLinc products, due to a switch failure. SmartHome determined the fix was to incorporate an updated tact switch in their products. If your SwitchLinc Dimmers are v3.2 or higher, they have the updated tact switch.

Obviously, bad units out of the box is never a good thing, but it can happen with any product.

I seem to have received 8 of these newer v3.2's. One's bad after just a week. Could've just been bad luck, but understandably doesn't gain my confidence in insteon products when I combine this with the PLM lockups and AP issues as well.

I have read about excessive lockups using HomeSeer's Insteon PLM driver. I can't speak for HomeSeer, because I've never used it, but I can speak for CQC and the ISY-26 (which I currently use). The PLM did lockup for me a couple times during initial Insteon programming with heavy powerline activity, but not during normal day-to-day use. HomeSeer seems particularly sensitive to PLM lockups, since HomeSeer users seem to have vastly more issues than other products that use the PLM I've seen. Beta versions of the updated PLM firmware seems to have fixed any lockup issues with the ISY-26, but I can't say whether or not it will help with HomeSeer. The new PLM firmware has been out for under a week I believe, so I'm sure it will take some time to get feedback.

I've read that the lock-ups are also caused when the insteon devices are linked back to the PLM to provide realtime status updates during manual control, which seems to cause a great deal of traffic and eventually locks the PLM up leaving unresponsive to PC control (macros). The UD ISY forum seems to be full of people with lock up issues on the 2412S PLM as well. Here I was thinking the PLM would be more reliable than the USB PLC which also apparently suffers from lock-ups and sometimes just goes to sleep.

I can send and receive X10 signals with the PLM and my ISY-26. Does the HomeSeer driver support X10 through the PLM?

Tried both HS and mControl and can't seem to get X10 control to work using the PLM. It's surprising that the CM11a is rock solid for X10.
Universal Devices forum chatter even suggest to plugging/piggybacking an AP into the PLM to boost it's weak signal output.

There are no links created to or from AccessPoints. The initial procedure outlined in their manual is simply to determine of your 2 AccessPoints are on opposite phases in your home. Blinking of the LED is indicative of traffic on the powerline. You might want to try and figure out what is causing that traffic...

I have one AP plugged in upstairs hallway and one on the main floor. I know from our electrician that the 2nd flr wiring is on the opposite phase of the main floor. He installed a Leviton X10 phase coupler/repeater in our elec panel intially to allow the X10 devices to work on the 2nd floor bedrooms.

No there's no links to or from the APs, but they do have to be setup/linked to each other by pressing the set button 4 times until it flashes then press set once on the other AP so that both unit's lights go to a steady dim. Problem is I've done this now 3 times and tried different locations. Initially they confirm react as expected, but sometime by the next day or so one of them is BLINKING bright (slowly) the same as it does when you first plug them in to be setup as if it had reset itself. If it was traffic/noise the light would stay dim a and flash with the traffic similar to the led on an ethernet card.

I dunno I guess I'm disappointed. I wasn't expecting to be a beta tester with this stuff after dropping $900 just on the first part of my install and I already need more switches and other devices.

 

[MikeB]

Just checked my 2412S PLM says 3207Firm52 Rev 2.4, I've had it for 10 days. So there's a newer Firm61 for the lockup issues?
Anything else changed on the newer rev besides firmware. I seem to remember reading something last night about more memory being added to it.

No idea, they've just started popping up apparently. My guess on the memory is "no". There were some beta units floating around that had newer firmware AND additional memory, but I don't think the intention is to include additional memory with every PLM. That may end up being a new additional product, who knows.

I seem to have received 8 of these newer v3.2's. One's bad after just a week. Could've just been bad luck, but understandably doesn't gain my confidence in insteon products when I combine this with the PLM lockups and AP issues as well.

Understandably, I'd feel the same.

I've read that the lock-ups are also caused when the insteon devices are linked back to the PLM to provide realtime status updates during manual control, which seems to cause a great deal of traffic and eventually locks the PLM up leaving unresponsive to PC control (macros). The UD ISY forum seems to be full of people with lock up issues on the 2412S PLM as well. Here I was thinking the PLM would be more reliable than the USB PLC which also apparently suffers from lock-ups and sometimes just goes to sleep.

Correct, but every device on the ISY-26 is linked back to the PLM. I have 60+ devices installed here, and like I said no lockups during normal use. There is discussion of lockup issues on the UDI message board, but past firmware updates from UDI have greatly reduced the lockups. I don't think you'll find many recent posts regarding the lockups, except from maybe new users doing initial programming. I'm on that forum regularly. Michel from UDI was a big help in troubleshooting the PLM issues with SmartHome.

Tried both HS and mControl and can't seem to get X10 control to work using the PLM. It's surprising that the CM11a is rock solid for X10.
Universal Devices forum chatter even suggest to plugging/piggybacking an AP into the PLM to boost it's weak signal output.

Not familiar with HS or mControl, so can't comment on that. But like I said, X10 commands send/receive fine with my ISY-26 and PLM. Yes, not related to X10 at all, but the PLM is reportedly more sensitive to noise and signal issues than many other Insteon devices. That's why most users recommend placing an AccessPoint on top of the PLM - to increase the signal strength to the unit, and also provideo an RF "beacon" right at the PLM.

He installed a Leviton X10 phase coupler/repeater in our elec panel intially to allow the X10 devices to work on the 2nd floor bedrooms.

Check into this - some X10 repeaters can cause interference with Insteon signals.

No there's no links to or from the APs, but they do have to be setup/linked to each other by pressing the set button 4 times until it flashes then press set once on the other AP so that both unit's lights go to a steady dim

You're incorrect on this. It's a common misconception, but the initial procedure is ONLY to verify they are on opposite phases. They are not linked at all. If you knew for certain which outlets were on which phase, you could skip this step.

but sometime by the next day or so one of them is BLINKING bright (slowly) the same as it does when you first plug them in to be setup as if it had reset itself.

Then maybe you have a bad AccessPoint.

 

[upstatemike]

Adding a bigger box was worth it in all locations as i like having 4 full / flexible scene commands in all locations without the load dependancy... Ya cost decreas might have been nice, but i'm out 3K in this solution anyway, what's a few more bucks

Not sure I follow your logic here... It is somehow better to gouge out space in your wall to add a gang to you electrical box than it would be for Leviton to make a keypad that controls a local load? You do understand that they could build one with more than 4 buttons on it if that is a big concern.

 

[sloop]

get out while you can - the news will only get worse with added investment

homeseer has a forum - but development has stopped on the insteon plugin - the plc version was abandoned because of the plc problems - the plm version is on hold pending a working plm

i have a test plm that seems reliable and can have more than 417 links - firmware version 58 - it was never offered to the public - i don't know how many links the version 61 can handle - the web site still says 417 - the vendor has not said much about it - they probably want to avoid replacing all the faulty ones they sold

the good news is the problem was addressed - the bad news is that it was not addressed because of customer complaints - it took another vendor to get it fixed for those of us in too deep to change to a working product line