Get rid of Insteon and switch to Zwave ? Need help

[upstatemike]

UPB is very popular here and the GEN-II stuff is supposed to be really nice. A little too expensive for me but the HAI brand is pretty reasonable by UPB standards. I think you can get some good feedback here but you can also call Automated Outlet for some additional help in comparing UPB to Z-Wave and Insteon.

 

[MikeB]

whether I should keep/return the Insteon stuff I find myself wondering if UPB is a viable option I should be also be considering ?

Yes, Martin at Automated Outlet is a big fan of UPB. While I was at EHX I saw UPB first-hand, and I liked what I saw. Switches seem very solid, and I like the look. I'm now the proud owner of a Simply Automated UPB Starter Kit (thanks Martin!), so I hope I'll get to play with them soon.

My initial impressions from what I saw at the show:
- not quite as 'quick' to turn on as Insteon
- very solid feeling switches, but different brands have different feels - so try a couple out to see what you prefer (I personally didn't like the feel of HAI switches)
- large - a bit larger than my Insteon switches, so maybe tough to get into crowded electrical boxes
- no dimmer level indicator
- switches are configurable - multiple toggles in one switch, half toggle/half scene controller, etc.. - pretty cool

People rave about UPB signal reliability, so it should be less sensitive to noise than Insteon. One thing that I don't like is they don't seem to be moving towards RF at all, though there is an X10 bridge available.

If I had to choose between Z-Wave or UPB for lighting, I like the IDEA of Z-Wave, but for actual PRODUCTS I like UPB.

 

[MikeB]

Actually you are the one that attacked me about how the PLM issues were not a wide spread problem and not the PLM's fault necessarily and how you had the "beta" sample with the increased memory and it would be a new product and not a "bug fix" since there was nothing wrong with it.

I said that other products don't lockup during normal use as often as HomeSeer does, so there must be something about HomeSeer triggering the issue more often than other products. Obviously there's an issue with the PLM, which is why SmartHome is updating the firmware. As for increased memory, that was just my understanding. Even though some beta units had increased memory, I wasn't under the impression that a PLM with updated firmware would necessarily include additional memory. Common sense tells me an upgraded unit with more memory will take more time to roll out than simply new firmware.

How did you know they were not going to roll that out as a fix for the problems with the lockups when you hit over 417 links?

I don't consider a 417 link limit a "problem", it's a limit posted right on their website. Hopefully the updated firmware reacts better when the PLM REACHES that limit, but I have no idea. Either way, my opinion is a PLM with additional memory to support more links might be a completely new product (PLM+ or whatever, I have no idea). There's certainly plenty of people with less than 417 links.

 

[WayneW]

...And I know you will tell me how you are in the "loyal customer" list and have access to the beta products. Well I am on that list to and get the same offers...

I guess I must have failed the loyalty test because I didn't even know there was a list!

I am in the same boat. I am just on the sales/spam email lists and use the RSS feeds, but never knew there was a better "loyal customer" list. So much for any benefits of being an early adopter.

 

[linuxha]

Actually you are the one that attacked me about how the PLM issues were not a wide spread problem and not the PLM's fault necessarily and how you had the "beta" sample with the increased memory and it would be a new product and not a "bug fix" since there was nothing wrong with it.

I said that other products don't lockup during normal use as often as HomeSeer does, so there must be something about HomeSeer triggering the issue more often than other products. Obviously there's an issue with the PLM, which is why SmartHome is updating the firmware. As for increased memory, that was just my understanding. Even though some beta units had increased memory, I wasn't under the impression that a PLM with updated firmware would necessarily include additional memory. Common sense tells me an upgraded unit with more memory will take more time to roll out than simply new firmware.

Let me preface this with the fact that this is my opinion:

I think the problem is that the PLM/PLC has a small buffer for handling incoming RS232/USB traffic. I ran into this with the early PLCs. I've got three that are messed up and can't be sent back (out of warranty). I feel Insteon hasn't really addressed this issue well but it is known. We've asked for information as to how fast you can send to the PLC and we've gotten various answers. I've had good luck with sending data in 4 byte chunks (important for the USB) with about 5ms delay/byte for RS232 and 20ms delay/frame for USB. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the issue with the PLM. When my PLC would get hosed up I noticed that they would start responding with really odd replies (and lot of NAKs).

PS: Where's this really loyal list and why ain't I on it. I have one of the very first SDKs. I still have my v1.1 serial PLC (that's one of the three) but they weren't getting that one back as it should be able to sniff all the traffic.

 

[upstatemike]

If I had to choose between Z-Wave or UPB for lighting, I like the IDEA of Z-Wave, but for actual PRODUCTS I like UPB.

I don't have any strong opinions about one lighting technology over another but with Z-Wave I have always been concerned that it requires a "master controller" which usually tends to be some cheap battery operated remote that could at any time get chewed up by your dog or lost in a seat cushion. Z-Wave is also fragile in that it depends on devices maintaining routing tables that can get totally scrambled if you simply move a lamp module from one end of the house to the other. (the term Mesh Network" sounds slick in the advertising but is not neccessarily a good thing). I think Z-Wave is meant to appeal to younger consumers whos idea of infrastructure is a wireless access point for their laptop and a docking station for their iPOD.

 

[MikeB]

I think the problem is that the PLM/PLC has a small buffer for handling incoming RS232/USB traffic. I ran into this with the early PLCs. I've got three that are messed up and can't be sent back (out of warranty). I feel Insteon hasn't really addressed this issue well but it is known. We've asked for information as to how fast you can send to the PLC and we've gotten various answers. I've had good luck with sending data in 4 byte chunks (important for the USB) with about 5ms delay/byte for RS232 and 20ms delay/frame for USB. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the issue with the PLM. When my PLC would get hosed up I noticed that they would start responding with really odd replies (and lot of NAKs).

Very possible, but I have no idea. I know the ISY-26 has had firmware updates to reduce PLM lockups - and like I've said, with the latest beta ISY-26 firmware I've had no PLM lockups other than during initial programming. Maybe UDI adjusted the rate which they communicate with the PLM.

I don't have any strong opinions about one lighting technology over another but with Z-Wave I have always been concerned that it requires a "master controller" which usually tends to be some cheap battery operated remote that could at any time get chewed up by your dog or lost in a seat cushion.

Wasn't aware of that, but I haven't researched much. Sounds like something you should keep in your equipment closet! So, what happens if this device is no longer present? What if the batteries die?

Z-Wave is also fragile in that it depends on devices maintaining routing tables that can get totally scrambled if you simply move a lamp module from one end of the house to the other.

I was aware of that. I guess it's a simple procedure to recalculate the routing tables from what I understand - no? Someone at EHX told me (don't remember if it was a Leviton or Intermatic guy) that Z-Wave was smart enough to "re-learn" the routing tables over time. So, if you moved a lamp module, response might slow a bit, but it will "fix" itself after a while. Not sure if this is correct or not. We definitely move lamp modules around the house all the time - so this would be a huge sore point for me. I have 6 lamp modules I use for holiday lighting, so my wife can simply move them around and plug in whatever it is she has depending on the holiday. They're all a member of a scene that is controlled by a KPL secondary button, and is scheduled to come on at sunset and off late at night. It's great that she can just move them around and change the decorations, and I don't have to change anything!

I think Z-Wave is meant to appeal to younger consumers whos idea of infrastructure is a wireless access point for their laptop and a docking station for their iPOD.

Lol... I was pissed when I bought my stepson a Wii, only to find it had built-in wireless, but no ethernet jack! I'd rather see a built-in ethernet port, and optional wireless. But maybe that's just my age showing. I ended up upgrading my WAP to reach the other side of my house where the Wii is.

 

[Herdfan]

Back to the OP:

I tried Insteon and ended up with close to $4K invested. I got some of that back when I sold my devices, but not close to all. It did not work for me. There were too many instances of coming home to my wife telling me that XYZ switch wasn't working - again. In al fairness, I jumped on the bandwagon early when it was first released, but I replaced some devices twice while I had Insteon. Yes, they were in all but one case, replaced under warranty, but it was still a huge PITA to have to replace devices in multi-gang boxes. Had it not been for Powerhome, I would have give up on Insteon before I did.

I understand some of the issues I had (bad resistor, paddle press issue) have been resolved, but there still seem to be too many complaints about the product to feel good about putting it in my house if I were starting over. Yes, it is working great for some, but there are still a number, again too high for my comfort, of users having significant problems. Why is that? I have no idea, but I do know that in the 6 months I have had my Lutron system, I have only had one instance of a missed signal and that was because my wife unplugged the repeater and no devices have failed.

Insteon has some advantages. I too wish that my Lutron keypads could control a load. But I compensated by putting a dimmer in the attic close to the load. It may fail at some time due to the heat and if it does, then I will find another solution (I will make a 2 gang box).

I don't think you can make a mistake going with Leviton or even Cooper. These are the 800lb gorillas of the switch industry along with Lutron.

Depending on your budget, give a look at Lutron's RadioRA or Centralite's Litejet(? new one). They are more expensive, but then again, this is your house and home. Don't let it become a headache where you dread soming home to another failed device.

Good luck.

 

[shenandoah75]

I will find another solution (I will make a 2 gang box).

 

[HighTest]

I don't think you can make a mistake going with Leviton or even Cooper. These are the 800lb gorillas of the switch industry along with Lutron.

I'd purchased several of the Leviton Vizia RF switches for my spouse to try out. Amazingly, the WAF is higher than our older non-HA switches. My biggest concern was going from the older toggle style to a Decora style with a bottom press only would be a reduction in the WAF, but it turned out to not be the case.

Please note that some have mentioned they don't like the bottom only press for activation or deactivation, and had gone with a different vendor to get the "rocker" action with out it returning to neutral. However, I'm moving full steam ahead with the Vizia RF line and haven't had any complaints yet. Note that this is the first time for installing the HA capable switches and dimmers. You'll see that I had both a Poll and a thread asking similar questions about Insteon, UPB, Z-Wave and whatnot. Interestingly in the Poll the UPB had the most voters umong the Cocooners. The desire to not worry about bridges to get the signal from one circuit to another, line noise interference concerns (much less with UPB, but there are those that posted they just couldn't seem to fix the issue) made me think strongly about Z-wave.

Again, one's milage may vary, but Z-wave is a good match for my needs at this time. Tstats and other technologies appear to be embracing Z-wave as well, and this may help to simplify the number of interfaces neccessary to communicate to those systems.

 

[KenM]

MiB,

I am using Vizia-RF in my smallish 1500 sq ft home. I currently only have one of the four-button controllers installed. In my case, I replaced the switch controlling my front porch light, I put that light on a Z-Wave socket switch, and mostly use a hand held controller to activate the switch manually or use HomeSeer2, a wireless Z-Wave motion detector, and a little logic to activate the light automatically. Some people install the controller in one box on a three-way circuit.


Some (sort of) related comments:

I have used INSTEON in the past. I am using Z-Wave now. I use mostly Vizia-RF and some other Z-Wave devices, I have six of the battery operated, hand held controllers. Those are so cool, no bridges or wall adapters necessary. The remotes are native Z-Wave devices, the same way Z-Wave wireless motion detectors (and newer motion/temperature/light level sensors) are.

If I had it all to do over again, INSTEON would not have been a choice. I have many reasons for that statement, mostly related to company policy and actions (or inactions).

Just for clarification: With Z-Wave the term 'master controller' is often interpreted wrongly. Z-Wave only allows one controller to add or delete devices from the network. That is the master controller. The master does not control routing and if it is destroyed you can just reset your devices and add them with a replacement controller. If you are an installer, it is an excellent way to prevent future headaches. I have read posts of toddlers, running around, hitting INSTEON switches and causing some really weird (links) results. I understand that some of the newer Z-Wave devices allow saving and creating a new master device via software.



Ken

 

[KenM]

...And I know you will tell me how you are in the "loyal customer" list and have access to the beta products. Well I am on that list to and get the same offers...

I guess I must have failed the loyalty test because I didn't even know there was a list!

I 'think' I am on the 'shoot on sight' list, yes, just kidding (maybe).

Ken

 

[upstatemike]

The master does not control routing and if it is destroyed you can just reset your devices and add them with a replacement controller.

Ken

You say that like it would be a trivial task but what if you have around 200 devices? And can you do this without wandering around to each device? What if they are fixture modules or screw in modules on a high spotlight that requires a 20 foot ladder to reach?

 

[KenM]

The master does not control routing and if it is destroyed you can just reset your devices and add them with a replacement controller.

Ken

You say that like it would be a trivial task but what if you have around 200 devices? And can you do this without wandering around to each device? What if they are fixture modules or screw in modules on a high spotlight that requires a 20 foot ladder to reach?

If I had that many devices, I would ask that question over a controlthink.com. I am not up to speed on the newer Z-Wave controllers but I do believe the scenario that was suggested has been addressed with the newer software/hardware. I am no expert on this stuff, Chris W (at CT) has a lot of 'hands on' work with the new devices and will be able to provide an informed answer.

Ken

 

[MiB]

There doesn't seem to be a simple one size fits all solution that works for everybody. My goal was to move away from X10 and make an 'investment' in a quality reliable HA deployment that can grow without becoming disposable.

Here's my thoughts for today, they may change by Monday (or even in the next few hours).

X10
Funny thing is our inexpensive X10 setup has been 95% stable over the past 6 months and not a single noise filter installed.
My wife hates the feel of the X10 wall dimmers tho. We have a few stick-a-switches scattered here and there to control various lamp modules throughout the house (the family rm has 3 lamps) and they work quite well most of the time. But there's always those days where you come home and half the lights didn't come on during an 'evening-on macro' for one reason or another. Since it was relatively cheap, not much pain in replacing it with a better product.

Insteon
Jack of all trades, master of none. Well thought out choices of various devices and switches, but poor QC & reliability. It seems even the diehard Insteon enthusiasts all admit that they've had their fair share of hardware failures and issues. Doesn't exactly instill confidence to want to invest 1 to 2k on it.
I do really like their KPL concept and that it serves to control local load as well as scenes. Their PLM/PLC's controllers need some improvement. I gave some thought last night to having my electrician install a power outlet right at the main electrical panel and running a 25ft serial cable from the server to connect the PLM on one phase and the X10 CM11a on the other phase. I'd still need to have my locking PLM as well as a failed switchlinc replaced if I decided to go against my better judgment and see what happens with Insteon. Price wise they're not as inexpensive as X10, and not that far off from Zwave devices in some categories.

UPB
Don't know enough about it yet to make much comment, but have read some good things about it's reliability and robustness of the hardware. I left a msg with automatedoutlet to discuss. Price wise not inexpensive, but can you place a cost on reliability ? I'd rather have less devices and switches to start off and build on a solid foundation than have to replace my hardware every year to 2 years due to failure. In the long run that'll cost a lot more not to mention my time and frustration.

Zwave
Lots of companies embracing Zwave and developing/releasing new devices. Leviton's ViziaRF hardware is said to be well built and inline with their usual quality. No need for any filters, access points or having to track down pesky powerline noise issues. Multi button scene controllers need an extra gang box since they don't control a local load (at least for now) so either cut out some drywall and add a box, hide an inline dimmer somewhere or wait it out until a new switch comes out. There's the issue of what happens to the established best network routing between devices when you pull a device out of the mesh, but i do believe software like homeseer has solved this with the 'zwave optimize network' feature which takes care of the problem and updates the routing. I have a concern that my server is in a basement wiring closet at rear far left of the house where the zwave controller would reside. Not sure how well RF signal will get out to devices thru the 1600sq ft on each floor. I suppose I'd have to add a few switches & modules as a breadcrumb trail from that closet that I wouldn't normally need just to enhance the mesh so what i'd save on APs I'd probably spend here.

Lots to think about.

The other option is capture the best of all worlds and use some of each of X10, Insteon and Zwave where they excel in their category. For instance for low voltage lighting control Insteon at $45 a dimmer sounds too hard to pass up compared to a $150 Vizia switch. Am I crazy to think this is even a sane solution to an otherwise complex decision ?