Going w/ Zigbee over Z-wave.. any thoughts?

[BrownChiLD]

hi

been researching and reading and learning re HA for the past few months..

and i thought I was OK w/ Z-wave and have actually started going w/ the standard..

but i've stumbled upon a few concerns..

they seem to be more expensive, and licensing frequencies may be an issue for my country (when i decide to become an installer myself and import units)

but i was working around that until i stumbled upon:
http://iot-smart-home.blogspot.com/2013/02/comparison-between-zigbee-and-z.html

a quick list but kinda is a definitive comparisson for me to start considering Zigbee.. specially w/ the 2.4Ghz open/free frequency.. sure you can say it's working in a crowded frequency but there's really ZERO reports of REAL INTERFERANCE ..

that and a few other things ive noticed that companies seem to be preffering zigbee.. more manufacturers, and even the Philips Hue is using zigbee..

So it got me thinking, z-wave perhaps is not the way to go.. i've invested so much time learning that side of the HA world, but i dont mind starting over to Zigbee if it's really worth it.

Anyway i have big plans w/ this Home Automation stuffs, perhaps establish a HA products and services company out of this hobby.. and it's a big decision for me coz once i go w/ one that's it LOL


Just fishing for thoughts.. tnx guys
 

 

[Deane Johnson]

Have you found any DIY Zigbee components other than Hue?
 
Hue looks sort of cool, but it's appears to be a closed system in that it only works with Apple.

 

[az1324]

Have you found any DIY Zigbee components other than Hue?
 
Hue looks sort of cool, but it's appears to be a closed system in that it only works with Apple.

 
It also works with Android, there is an API, and some people have had success getting the bulbs to associate with another Zigbee network other than the default Hue gateway.
 
Some of the Lowes Iris stuff is Zigbee
Ecobee has a Zigbee Outlet
Smartenit has Zigbee stuff
 
Those are just US products but there are more in Europe and Asia.  Zigbee seems to be gaining use in China especially.
 
But I don't know all the details of the ZLL stack vs the HA stack vs the SE stack and how you can use them at the same time, etc...

 

[picta]

Centralite Azela operates on zigbee HA

 

[pete_c]

Over the last few months I picked up some little capacitance touch screen table top tablets.  They were being utilized domestically and internationally. 
 
They all came with Zigbee chips in a basic Linux flash OS.  Depending on their function; they also came with DECT VOIP stuff.  I have been able to chatter some with the Zigbee via the Linux tools in the flash OS.  Only thing is I don't have any Zigbee stuff here.
 
The Zigbee on them was being utilized for energy and thermostat management.
 
These little devices were manufactured around 2010-2011.  The larger telcos were selling these as voip dect phone hubs.  Maybe a bit ahead of their time and they were toted as the next thing in home energy management comparing the interface to an Ipad.
 
The larger ones have an Intel Atom CPU, mini pci-e slot, Gb and wireless networking, PATA ZIF (traces), Micro SD slot (traces), HD audio and video.  I've refitted (soldering and stuff) and one person wrote a new BIOS (seabios) replacing the utilized EFI bios such that the box runs Windows, Android, Linux et al.  I have one running XBMC on its soldered on 2Gb partition using Ubuntu 11.04; runs fine. Another running Squeezebox player on a 1Gb parition using Ubuntu.  
 
Many of these were built for sales and distribution and they are sitting collecting dust in warehouses.  I've picked one up for $5 but mostly around $50 each. 

 

[etc6849]

Are zigbee devices from different manufacturers inter-operable?  Can I use Control4 or Crestron's zigbee products with some generic RS232 controller?  If so, what controller should I be looking at, and what is the software for setting up the network?  All of these things seem unknown to me (still), and I've found zero information several years back when I ended up going with Z-Wave.
 
Assuming the answer is no (I hope it's not), I really don't know why you are choosing Zigbee over Z-Wave.  Z-Wave is the DIY friendly solution.  Leviton's Vizia RF+ z-wave line has been rock solid for me.  You would need their USB stick, their free RF Installer tool (software), and an RS232 controller.
 
I have less than 1/10000 transmission failures with Premise and its opensource z-wave module (uses a VRC0P RS232 controller).  If you were going to need more than 255 devices, I'd say explore zigbee, but the truth is you likely will never exceed z-wave's limitations (in a home).  I think you are setting yourself up for a nightmare unless all zigbee stuff is guaranteed to be inter-operable.
 
For motion and door sensors, use an Elk M1G.  I wouldn't use battery powered z-wave or zigbee stuff unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Zigbee devices use a particular 'profile', which defines the format and meaning of the msgs exchanged. Companies can use a predefined profile, such as the home automation profile, but they don't have to. As I understand it, it seems like a lot of them don't, preferring to use their own because they sell hardware and allowing you to use other people's hardware isn't in their business interests. And of course they probably don't want to have to support people using mixed systems, where they might be blamed for the failures of other pieces of gear.
 
And some if it may be because it's one thing to be a manufacturer of a light switch, and another to be the manufacturer of an automation system. The former may be happy to fit into any system that supports the HA profile, while the later may have lots of stuff they want to communicate between the parts of their own system that is outside that standardized profile. That's just speculation on my part, I don't know if that's really true or not.
 
What I don't fully understand is the supporting of multiple profiles simultaneously. Clearly, any controller that needs to talk to multiple devices using different profiles, would have to support all those profiles at once. It's not clear to me if that's doable via the commonly available Zigbee enabling devices like Xbee or not. I.e. if you want to sell a widget that light switch makers can include in their light switches, that widget would only have to support the one profile the light switch uses. But, if you want to create a controller that talks a bunch of profiles (and possibly over time needs to be updated to support more), I'm not sure if that's doable via readily available things like XBee, or would be something much more expensive and complicated to incorporate.
 
If an automation system insures that all the bits in its own system only use its own private profile, then it would I guess be able to avoid that issue as well, I dunno.

 

[etc6849]

What Dean said was my understanding based on the electronic house articles I read several years back.  I hope you let us know how things workout for you.

 

[BrownChiLD]

@All
Thank you very much for giving my question your valuable attention 
 
As w/ the interoperability, yes that's what i keep reading and hearing about.. Zigbee perhaps made it complicated w/ all these profiles.. I just received a price list from a Chinese supplier for Zigbee devices and it looks like this:

http://d.pr/i/IDgP

as you can see it has a column for HA profile compatibility and it's not all HA on one supplier.. So i was like "What does this mean? The devices can't talk to each other BUT all can talk to a gateway?"

it's really confusing me right now..
 

Are zigbee devices from different manufacturers inter-operable?  Can I use Control4 or Crestron's zigbee products with some generic RS232 controller?  If so, what controller should I be looking at, and what is the software for setting up the network?  All of these things seem unknown to me (still), and I've found zero information several years back when I ended up going with Z-Wave.
 
Assuming the answer is no (I hope it's not), I really don't know why you are choosing Zigbee over Z-Wave.  Z-Wave is the DIY friendly solution.  Leviton's Vizia RF+ z-wave line has been rock solid for me.  You would need their USB stick, their free RF Installer tool (software), and an RS232 controller.
 
I have less than 1/10000 transmission failures with Premise and its opensource z-wave module (uses a VRC0P RS232 controller).  If you were going to need more than 255 devices, I'd say explore zigbee, but the truth is you likely will never exceed z-wave's limitations (in a home).  I think you are setting yourself up for a nightmare unless all zigbee stuff is guaranteed to be inter-operable.
 
For motion and door sensors, use an Elk M1G.  I wouldn't use battery powered z-wave or zigbee stuff unless it's absolutely necessary.

 
Thanks man I do understand that. And to be honest I have my heart on Z-wave long ago.. but truthfully it's really these reasons why im considering a switch:

1) cost - after crawling through so many sources, it seems zigbee stuffs are cheaper for Home automation, dunno about big commercial stuffs
2) I was under the impression it's easier, more hack/diy friendly, since it's more OPEN than Zwave
3) 2.4Ghz!!! <-- this is the GOLD for me as well, coz if I decide to bring in devices into my country, I wont have to worry about regulators knocking on my door or confiscating my stuffs
4) 2.4Ghz universal, while Profiles may be different , atleast the frequencies are same across the board.. vs Z-wave playing w/ 800ish and 900ish Mhz Eu and US w/c is down right limitting in terms of options


and there is that 433 standard w/ Ninja block. that im looking at.. w/c is so much more cheaper.. but at the moment the whole thing is more of a hack/slash approach and i cant be an installer of such.. i kinda need a "ready to go commercial" type product if i wana be a serious installer.  <-- and this is the thing really, if it was just for my home i'd probably play around but im looking to make a small business out of it while very little around here even knows what the heck home automation is. hence more pressure on this decision


But so far, perhaps if i stick w/ z-wave... on US frequencies.. and find 220v devices (my country's power profile).. and hope government dont catch the frequency these devices are running on.. then im good. lol

 

[etc6849]

If you want to buy Chinese products and install them into someone's home...  I really don't want to discourage you or give you any advice on doing this, but there is this thing called building codes and most inspectors/jurisdictions (for the US anyways) are going to want any switch/device to be UL listed (and not some fake Chinese UL listing either).
 
I wouldn't trust ANY product from China unless there was guaranteed quality control and an non-Chinese company I've heard of behind the product.  Someone's home can burn down and if they die, in the US anyways, you could be criminally prosecuted for knowingly violating a local jurisdictions building code.  Good luck with your endeavors.  I don't know what country you are in, but I know what you are talking about would not fly where I live.
 
Also, the Z-Wave protocol is not that closed off to DIYers (in the US).  As my earlier post stated Leviton's VRC0P is an RS232 Z-Wave controller with an opensource driver (and a published protocol).  However, I have no idea of a European equivalent to the VRC0P (assuming  you're in Europe).
 
 

1) cost - after crawling through so many sources, it seems zigbee stuffs are cheaper for Home automation, dunno about big commercial stuffs
2) I was under the impression it's easier, more hack/diy friendly, since it's more OPEN than Zwave
3) 2.4Ghz!!! <-- this is the GOLD for me as well, coz if I decide to bring in devices into my country, I wont have to worry about regulators knocking on my door or confiscating my stuffs
4) 2.4Ghz universal, while Profiles may be different , atleast the frequencies are same across the board.. vs Z-wave playing w/ 800ish and 900ish Mhz Eu and US w/c is down right limitting in terms of options


and there is that 433 standard w/ Ninja block. that im looking at.. w/c is so much more cheaper.. but at the moment the whole thing is more of a hack/slash approach and i cant be an installer of such.. i kinda need a "ready to go commercial" type product if i wana be a serious installer.  <-- and this is the thing really, if it was just for my home i'd probably play around but im looking to make a small business out of it while very little around here even knows what the heck home automation is. hence more pressure on this decision


But so far, perhaps if i stick w/ z-wave... on US frequencies.. and find 220v devices (my country's power profile).. and hope government dont catch the frequency these devices are running on.. then im good. lol

 

[BrownChiLD]

@Cocoonut

thanks but yeh i've already put that into consideration. ofcourse i'm getting from reputable chinese manufacturers .. heck almost every switch and outlet in your (and our) homes are chinese made.. im not talking about Knock offs.. im talking about real companies producing real devices w/ all the QC and stuff.. and as for me i'm not an electrical engineer but ofcourse i'll be hiring people for that stuff. i'm more on the programming/design etc.. my EE will do the installations and stuff like that.

w/ that said.. i am wondering HOW WRONG can these devices GO?

My thoughts on these "critical devices" are: (by critical i mean those that connect to the house wirings like switches and receptacles)

1) Worst / common that can happen is grounding w/c will trip off the breaker anyway  = no worries there
2) these devices don't have anything that can burn up in flames like nicd nimh or other types of batteries .. and im sure the zwave/zigbee or other radio chips doesnt have EXPLOSION potentials at all LOL
3) Worst scenarios are simply , the damn switch wont work
 

 

[pete_c]

Yes mostly HA stuff is mfg in China these days.  Designs are from here, mfg there, limited and controlled distribution here.  Heck even distributed here devices put a made in the USA sticker on them when in fact if you look at the circuit board you will see where its source of origin is.
 
Personally I've always considered UL approval ranked up there.  Not so these days. 
 
Do a google search on the differences between UL approval done for CCFL lighting in the US and Canada.   
 
My first "foray" into Z-Wave sorted of dinged my efforts.  I went to external light and appliance modules.  One day I replaced an x10 lamp switch that was behind a couch (difficult to move) with a new Z-Wave switch made by a well known US MFG. (a relative term these days).  Geez; I had been using their timers for parking lot illumination timers since the 1970's.
 
I was home when I saw this happen.  The flash was bright enough to be seen around the sides of the couch.  This could have started a fire.  The MFG was kind and did replace the switch within a couple of weeks.  Even though this is a rare occurance I replaced z-wave light switch with a UPB light switch and have not had any issues to date.

 

[neillt]

I don't think I have seen what country you are in, but would you consider a powerline system over wireless?
 
HAI's OmniBus is made for 220v 50Hz power grids....
http://homeauto.com/Products/OmniBus/OmniBus.asp

 

[etc6849]

WTF!?!  I only have one Intermatic device, and it's a 30A z-wave relay for my dust collector in the garage.  Maybe I should rethink using it.  I'm not buying any of their products again after seeing that.  You should call the CPSC.
 
I'm pretty sure that particular lamp module was UL listed (as I used to have some I bought at Tuesday Morning), but it does show why UL listing is important. If the poster thinks these small Chinese factories spend the time and care in design work that a real company does, he/she is dreaming.  
 
UL listing is important.  UL does actually test devices they list (the particular test depends on the category), these tests include things such as degraded voltage, shock hazard, etc...  UL listing is very expensive though, so that's why these Chinese companies like to put fake UL labels on things.
 
I do agree a lot of Chinese products are good, but usually only when a non-Chinese company company is involved somehow (design, QC, etc...).

 

[picta]

IMO, the hard wired systems are significantly better and more reliable than any wireless alternatives, they are also a lot easier to set up and diagnose. HAI omni-bus or centralite elegance would be my preferences in Europe. However these systems are not for a retrofit solution. For a retrofit many choose wireless as the only option available. In that case I would either go zigbee or Leviton-only z-wave. Z-wave devices are available from various manufactures and they respectively greatly vary in quality. Z-wave technology has a lower connectivity range than zigbee and therefore requires more devices per area than zigbee. It is also very locale dependent and is affected by metal objects (cars, pipes, beams). This is why you may see a range of reviews from z-wave users, those who are lucky to have the switches in all the right places will have a much happier experience. Z-wave is particularly terrible in high-rise concrete and glass modern buildings because of the structural enforcements, but zigbee devices will be more tolerant there due to the higher range. UPB technology is another alternative over wireless, however it'll be more difficult to use in mufti-family buildings due to the sharing of power lines.