HAI UBP - repeater or coupler?

[rosenqui]

I'm replacing 15 or so ALC switches that have gone flaky with HLC switches. The HLC switches are cheaper than new ALC switches, and frankly I don't trust that the Cat3 wiring to the ALC switches isn't part of the problem.
 
I'm also replacing a handful of X10 switches in places where there was no Cat3 wire or where I needed something like a 1000W dimmer that ALC didn't offer back in 2000.
 
My question is whether I should be getting the HAI Split Phase Repeater or if something like the Simply Automated Breaker Panel Inverting Phase Coupler would suffice? The house is about 6000 sq ft on 3 levels with 200A service. The transformer is just across the road, but that's still a good 200' away from the house. Items that have caused me trouble for X10 in the past are the sump pump motor, treadmill, Meile dishwasher, and any devices down-circuit after an APC UPS.
 
I don't plan to mix in any other brand of UPB switches - just the new Gen3 HLC 35A00-1CFL dimmers and a few 40A00-1 relays. Most of the coupler/repeater discussions I've read centered around compatibility and effectiveness with Gen1 & Gen2 switches, or some mixture of the two.
 
Has anyone achieved reliable Gen3 operation with the SA phase coupler, or should I play it safe and get the more expensive repeater from HAI?

 

[pete_c]

Personally here had no issues with primary implementation of a PCS, SA and HAI UPB switches.  No couplers nor repeaters that were being utilized.
 
Then one day my signals went way down (testing PIM to UPB switch via Upstart).  I guessed mostly at the cause.
 
I initially tested a PCS then an HAI coupler.  It worked a little bit but not enough for me and while my lighting was working signals were randomly still pretty low.  Note that there was no noise on the lines.  Electrical connections are about 100 feet or so from home.
 
Later I installed an HAI UPB signal coupler.  It's been a couple of years now and its been working fine with good signals on both phases of the house.
 
In your case; planning modes; I would test signals first then try one or the other and see what it does for you.

 

[Desert_AIP]

I use a pair of SA breaker box couplers.
 
I have a 3200 sqft house with 200A primary service and two outbuildings, 800 sqft and 400 sqft, running off a 100A sub panel.
The couplers are both in the sub panel.
I've had very good comm strength and no issues with the couplers for 4 years now.
 
I have an electric water heater.
With only a singler coupler I was getting inetrmittent comms problems.
I narrowed it down to the time when the water heater was active, effectively coupling the two legs of the electrical service and attenuating the signals.
The second coupler boosted the signal strength and solved this issue. 
(I actually have a third coupler installed but will likely remove it. in testing the additive factor of the second was significant while the third was negligible).
 
I use SA products almost exclusively with my OmniPro II.

 

[ano]

I've used both. If you have all Gen 3 switches, use the repeater. It works great and you won't be sorry (except for the price of it.) Couplers work in most cases, but even with three, I'm on the edge very occasionally. For your size house, the repeater is best. I wish I could keep using the repeater, but with Gen 2 switches its only one-way to the switch but the signal back is lost.

 

[richard]

My  $ .02 - I have a large UPB setup and had 2 issues in the last 5+ years.  We all certainly hear to isolate issues rather than apply a fix to the whole environment,
 
I had 1 UPB module that did not respond and it happened over a sudden period of time.  Probably 1 week from no issues to no communication.  I used the same procedure as Pete C. and searched for communication issues with upstart and could not get communication to a specific module in my home.  All other communications showed no issues.  Moved the module and received good communication, so I found a dead spot.  Put filters on devices in the area and on the same circuits. No communications still and  thought I really found a dead zone since filters did not work.
 
I did not unplug every device near or on same circuit. (my educational opportunity) and determined I found a real dead zone.  Sort of the thought,  if the filters do not work then UPB must have more issues that most report.  Then 8 months later, I got rid of a - Vizio tv on the circuit and heard a module clicking one morning.  It was the test UPB appliance module I left in the outlet that was working. 
 
The Vizio tv , or any other.... probably, had been on the same circuit for over 3 years,  I question that,  the power brick had some component change and introduce the noise? Is that a real likely possibility?
 
So the filtered power brick on the tv was the issue and filtering does not always work (in my environment).  Unplugging and testing might be the root to a good solution.  There are many possible devices to change the powerline noise. So far my Led bulbs are not creating any havoc like the CFL had been.  UPB has been really stable and 1 of many good ways to control and automate.  I have learned that there is not only 1 good choice but integrate the many good ones for what is needed.
 
Richard
 
[UPB, X10, Homeseer, ELK, HAI, MCS Sprinklers, Zwave,  Zigbee, IP]

 

[ano]

I agree that testing and determining noise is important, but there are also some things out of your control when it comes to getting the signal to cross from one phase to the other. In my house, with every breaker off except for the computer interface and the device, the signal has trouble passing from one phase to the other. Passive couplers do help greatly, but my signal is still low with three couplers in place.  The repeater brings the signal up to excellent everywhere always.
 
In addition, your house is dynamic, and new devices are plugged into an outlet on a daily basis sometimes. What works today may not work tomorrow. No matter how much noise, I've never seen UPB NOT get through on the phase the computer interface on, but the opposite phase is a different story.  A repeater makes both phases have super strong signals, to the point where an added noise source really doesn't matter, ever. Couplers do work 99% of the time, and troubleshooting can fix the other 1%, but a repeater is the set-and-forget solution that works 100% of the time.

 

[pete_c]

Yup; here added a UPB floater and another static UPB Pim furthest away from the primary UPB Pim.  Started to look initially to see where the signal hole was.
 
That said after installing the UPB repeater; looked a few times and noticed that signal levels did not change anymore.
 
@rosenqui
 
Your bestest tool is Upstart, a laptop and a UPB PIM.  Go mobile in your house and check out signals on both phases all over the house; takes only a few minutes. 
 
I put breakers here for the UPB devices (coupler and or repeater) such that I could check with them on or off. 
 
I also re-documented the fuse panel printing out a granular breaker / location paper; the checking was low on the WAF and we used little walkie talkies.

 

[rosenqui]

Thanks to all who replied. I plan on sticking with Gen3 Leviton/HAI switches so I'll spend a little extra and get the repeater. Hopefully that will keep reliability as close to 100% as possible for years to come.

 

[pgray007]

Sorry to revive an old topic, but I'm looking into adding a repeater to a subpanel in my house. Based on the instructions for the HAI model, it seems two additional breakers are needed (one for each phase) and then the repeater itself is added to a knockout. I don't have much room in and of my panels so if I could avoid taking 3 knockouts I'd like to. Can you "piggyback" the repeater off two existing breakers or is that not a wise choice?
 
If I had to, I could completely replace one panel to something with more room, but that's probably too large a job for my capabilities.

 

[pete_c]

You can purchase those little split breakers (double ones that fit in one slot).  I use those here.

 

[pgray007]

Cool. I'd never seen those! So I'd put one on each phase and then I could put another circuit on the "unoccupied" mini breaker in the future, correct?

 

[ano]

The breakers use a double slot, so two single breaker slots or one double slot.
 
I'm having great luck with both a non-inverting coupler AND a repeater together. The repeater works for the Gen II devices and the coupler works for the Simply Automated stuff. If you have a mixture with bad signal levels, this is the way to go.

 

[pete_c]

So I'd put one on each phase and then I could put another circuit on the "unoccupied" mini breaker in the future, correct?
 
Yes.
 
Note that if you have not ever done anything with your electrical panel before or do not feel comfortable playing with electricity; do not.  Hire a professional.

 

[pgray007]

I installed a new circuit a few weeks ago and that was my first foray into the panel, but I appreciate your sentiment. Anything too advanced and I call the pros, but I do have some experience in oilfield so I do appropriate tag-outs on the main panel, etc., to play it safe. I still think AC has some element of voodoo to it however, versus the straightforward nature of DC!
 

So I'd put one on each phase and then I could put another circuit on the "unoccupied" mini breaker in the future, correct?
 
Yes.
 
Note that if you have not ever done anything with your electrical panel before or do not feel comfortable playing with electricity; do not.  Hire a professional.

 

[ano]

I installed a new circuit a few weeks ago and that was my first foray into the panel, but I appreciate your sentiment. Anything too advanced and I call the pros, but I do have some experience in oilfield so I do appropriate tag-outs on the main panel, etc., to play it safe. I still think AC has some element of voodoo to it however, versus the straightforward nature of DC!

ALWAYS turn off the MAIN BREAKER before working in there and never get near the top of the panel where the power comes in. If you think you may need to get near the top, call the utility and have them shut off the panel.  They will come and do it for free.
 
If you are adding a repeater or coupler (the wired kind) add a new 15A or 20A double breaker and connect it to that. It is almost always illegal to put two wires under one terminal, so don't do it.  If you add a surge protector, you will need to add another double breaker of the size specified.  I added one last week and it needed a 50A breaker.
 
After YEARS of experimentation, this is what i recommend based on the brand of UPB switches you have:
 
If you have ALL Simply Automated Switches, use:
* Simply Automated Inverting Couplers OR
HAI or PCS Non-Inverting Couplers
 
If you have ALL HAI and/or PCS devices and NO SA devices use:
* HAI or PCS Repeater OR
Simply Automated Inverting Couplers OR
HAI or PCS Non-Inverting Couplers
 
If you have HAI and/or PCS devices AND Simply Automated devices use:
* HAI or PCS Repeater AND HAI or PCS Non-Inverting Couplers OR
Simply Automated Inverting Couplers OR
HAI or PCS Non-Inverting Couplers
 
* Preferred Choice
 
Do not mix or match other combinations.  For example, never use a repeater with an inverting coupler.