Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5
- Thread starter Sacedog
- Start date
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
Tony:
I'm having some weird things happening with my switches:
- different switches seem to have different dimming speeds/rates out of the box...some are very fast where its nearly impossibly to set the lighting level the way you want it...others are a nice slow ramp the way it should be i think..
- 1 switch is controllable through the LV wires, but has no control via the rocker except when you press hard...then the light goes momentarilly off untill you release and it comes back on. Control via the red/black/green LV wires is as one woudl expect.
- 1 switch has normal control through LV wires, but will only turn off via the local rocket and not on. This really confuses me.. although i can't seem to trigger it i observed the light dimming (fading to off) by itself without touching the buttons and i checked and the LV wires were not touching each other or ground either...very strange..
Both of these were new in box. About 7 others from the same lot are generally working ok except for the different ramp rates..
Any suggestions? I know you said it's very rare that the switches are defective...but i've checked the wiring...the LV wires are local (not connected to cat5 yet) and the HV wiring is correct as far as i can tell...this is also confirmed by the light coming on and working properly when the dimmer is controlled through the LV wires..
I'm having some weird things happening with my switches:
- different switches seem to have different dimming speeds/rates out of the box...some are very fast where its nearly impossibly to set the lighting level the way you want it...others are a nice slow ramp the way it should be i think..
- 1 switch is controllable through the LV wires, but has no control via the rocker except when you press hard...then the light goes momentarilly off untill you release and it comes back on. Control via the red/black/green LV wires is as one woudl expect.
- 1 switch has normal control through LV wires, but will only turn off via the local rocket and not on. This really confuses me.. although i can't seem to trigger it i observed the light dimming (fading to off) by itself without touching the buttons and i checked and the LV wires were not touching each other or ground either...very strange..
Both of these were new in box. About 7 others from the same lot are generally working ok except for the different ramp rates..
Any suggestions? I know you said it's very rare that the switches are defective...but i've checked the wiring...the LV wires are local (not connected to cat5 yet) and the HV wiring is correct as far as i can tell...this is also confirmed by the light coming on and working properly when the dimmer is controlled through the LV wires..
TonyStewart
Active Member
Allow me the luxury of handling your questions after I explain my approach to tech support and hope that it does not annoy you. On the telephone I can smooth out my approach and avoid raising the blood pressure of the caller by not making them feel like I am accusing or doubting their word. Here, this is not as easy, so forive me in advance if I speak firmly!
Not actually being on site, it is difficult to do telephone tech support and harder to do email tech support because there are factors I can't see.
To do tech support it is necessary to understand a few "foundational things". Without that we may be on different levels and wasting time.
Here is a few core or foundational building blocks that must be established.
1. THERE ARE NEVER "TWO" BAD OUT OF THE BOX DEVICES. - PERIOD! In the case of ALC switches this is especially true. A few weeks back I mentioned my personal install history of ALC over the last few months. It is now approaching 500 total devices without a single failure of any kind (mechanical or electrical). OnQ claims a <2% failure rate, but also knows that of the less than 2% returned, most were damaged by the installer (and were still covered under warranty anyway).
2. IF IT DOES NOT WORK INTIALLY - CHECK YOUR WIRING!
3. IF IT FAILS AFTER SOME RUN TIME - CHECK YOUR POWER SUPPLY (or see number 2 for intermittent connections).
With that in place let's move forward on your specifics.
Unless you are using Scenetech software or the SDK (Software Developers kit), then the dimming rate is not adjustable and is fixed at the factory. The only things I can say is that your loads are a suspect. Unless you are dimming a load with capacitance or with some sort of electronics, then the dimming rate should be as set at the factory. Of course dimming flourescant loads is always an issue with any dimmer or any brand.
I confirmed this with Ramir at OnQ and he is also looking at this thread. I hope he can contribute more. However we both agree that the dimming rate is not a known issue (unless a funky load is a factor).
I have seen some flaky operation of the LV related to wires pinched against the switch chassis or other LV wire. Check your connections and the integrity of your cat5 run.
As for the rocker issues, this is also rare. You can disassemble the rocker (being careful not to lose the tiny springs) and reposition it. It sound like they are in a bind.
It is rare to have one problem related to the switch. So two is not likely. I stand on this so firmly that I INSIST that no person has ever got two bad switches out of the box.
Please send your load types and also recheck connections.
Hope this helps
God Bless
TS
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
Hi Tony,
I appreicate your input and have the same issue where via text it's much easier to come across as harsh and piss people off. So No offense taken. I also found it quite unlikely to have one and especially more than one bad device considering ALC's good reputation.
The switches in question are partially installed, the LV is not even conencted to the cat5 run yet. The HV is conencted and checekd and correct. I took a proper workign ALC dimmer and put it in place of the 'suspect' one and all worked well. I put the 'suspect' one in the location where the proper functionaing one had been and it exhibited the same 'suspect' behaviour at the new location.
Again...LV wires not even connect yet, so no pinched..
I tied to look at the rockers,but after removed the little screws it seems hard to remove the cover. I'm not confortable doing this to the part since i coudl potentially void the warrenty i suppose.
I'll double check eveything again tonight...but unless i missed something I don't know what to tell you. Maybe i shoudl send them your way to have a look.
All my loads are plain old regular light bulbs. No CFL, Halo or anything special.
I appreicate your input and have the same issue where via text it's much easier to come across as harsh and piss people off. So No offense taken. I also found it quite unlikely to have one and especially more than one bad device considering ALC's good reputation.
The switches in question are partially installed, the LV is not even conencted to the cat5 run yet. The HV is conencted and checekd and correct. I took a proper workign ALC dimmer and put it in place of the 'suspect' one and all worked well. I put the 'suspect' one in the location where the proper functionaing one had been and it exhibited the same 'suspect' behaviour at the new location.
Again...LV wires not even connect yet, so no pinched..
I tied to look at the rockers,but after removed the little screws it seems hard to remove the cover. I'm not confortable doing this to the part since i coudl potentially void the warrenty i suppose.
I'll double check eveything again tonight...but unless i missed something I don't know what to tell you. Maybe i shoudl send them your way to have a look.
All my loads are plain old regular light bulbs. No CFL, Halo or anything special.
TonyStewart
Active Member
I would love to get my hands on these. So please mail them to me at 1-864-663-0011 Ext 3
Thanks
TS
TonyStewart
Active Member
I will attach the Scenetech software to one and see if setting it through scenetech will allow the settings to do as you request and also to allow the settings to stay with the switch when used by a controller. I think it will.
I can't get to this right away as the plate overfloweth! Will advise once I test as described.
TS
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
Carefull picking up the phone since these packages may hurt you coming out of the receiver..
I just ordered some new ones from your site, after another final check to make sure i won't be eating crow I'll ship the 'suspect' one to you.
TonyStewart
Active Member
Carefull picking up the phone since these packages may hurt you coming out of the receiver..
I just ordered some new ones from your site, after another final check to make sure i won't be eating crow I'll ship the 'suspect' one to you.
I meant to say call me about the address.... I think I've been in the automation business too long. the brain is losing more than it retains........ Is their such thing as ASBESTOSIS in our industry?
I myself remember the taste of crow feathers all too well! But someone has to be the first to see new problems. One issue I did not address was that manufacturing "batches" or runs sometimes don't get the quality control or testing that they should get and as such, new issues slip past. This could be true in the case of the rocker action. The LV issues is another matter (here I think you should recheck everything). As relates to manufacturing runs that get past QC, Onq makes this so rare that I can't remember ever seeing such issues. Their QC is pretty tight.
TS
Sacedog
Active Member
Well, I am finally getting around to hooking up my ALC boards, so that I can start getting a couple of switches hooked up. I need some help though. I am trying to figure out how to connect multiple Branch Hubs to a Distribution Module. I downloaded the docs, and it is pretty straight forward on how to cascade hubs. What isn't clear to me is how to connect the hub to the Distribution module.
Off of the hub, there is a White/Blue(ALC Branch +), Blue(ALC Branch -), White/Brown(12 VDC), and White/Green(Ground). I would assume that the 12 VDC, and Ground connect to the 12 VDC and Ground on connection point 9 on the Distribution Module (does it matter which position I use on the punchdown block on position 9?). Where shoudl I connect the ALC +/- to on the Distribution Module? Position 1?
Also, should I cascade the hubs, or should I connect each one directly to the Distribution Module.
TIA...oh, and if anyone has some pics, that would be helpful. ^_^
Off of the hub, there is a White/Blue(ALC Branch +), Blue(ALC Branch -), White/Brown(12 VDC), and White/Green(Ground). I would assume that the 12 VDC, and Ground connect to the 12 VDC and Ground on connection point 9 on the Distribution Module (does it matter which position I use on the punchdown block on position 9?). Where shoudl I connect the ALC +/- to on the Distribution Module? Position 1?
Also, should I cascade the hubs, or should I connect each one directly to the Distribution Module.
TIA...oh, and if anyone has some pics, that would be helpful. ^_^
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
Hopefully TS will chime in with the professional opinion..but as far as i know the communication loop can be all paralleled and the hub need TX+, TX- and +12V and GND.
From the distro module i would think you can take the 12v/GND connection from the bottom right area and the TX+ and TX- from anywhere.
If you're cacading hub isn't it likely that you're going to exceed the cable length limits (don't recall the limit) or the # of devices on a branch (31)?
I got the expansion module which adds 3 branches and has RJ45 connecitons. I plan to put a RJ45 on one end of a cat5 and plug it in there and punchdown the cat5e at the hub end since they're no RJ45 plug of the hub like they have on the distro module.
Are you hub 'in the field' or in the wiring room? I understand the benefit of the enhanced hub with the dip switches but couldnt justify the cost. For any ALC cat5e that goes to the wiring panel it all goes to distribution modules which are mounted in there. For the upstairs i'll have a hub in a 2 gang LV bracked in one of the walls.
From the distro module i would think you can take the 12v/GND connection from the bottom right area and the TX+ and TX- from anywhere.
If you're cacading hub isn't it likely that you're going to exceed the cable length limits (don't recall the limit) or the # of devices on a branch (31)?
I got the expansion module which adds 3 branches and has RJ45 connecitons. I plan to put a RJ45 on one end of a cat5 and plug it in there and punchdown the cat5e at the hub end since they're no RJ45 plug of the hub like they have on the distro module.
Are you hub 'in the field' or in the wiring room? I understand the benefit of the enhanced hub with the dip switches but couldnt justify the cost. For any ALC cat5e that goes to the wiring panel it all goes to distribution modules which are mounted in there. For the upstairs i'll have a hub in a 2 gang LV bracked in one of the walls.
TonyStewart
Active Member
Excellent input and correct as stated!
As mentioned, the 364645-01 Distibution module is for one branch only. It does make a nice and neat panel mounted tie point for hubs located out in the rooms/closets. It is most often used as a panel mounted tie point for a few ALC switches without a field mounted hub. But it can support remote hubs as well.
If you are using more than 31 ALC devices, then you will need to clone this equipment list and wiring strategy for each branch.
Observe the 500' rule (total on all runs) as mentioned by Mavric.
TS
Sacedog
Active Member
That is how I have mine set up (or will when I get it wired). I have the expansion module, giving me a total of 4 branches. On each branch I have a Distribution module. On each distribution module, I have 2-3 hubs.
I thought I recalled that the 500' rule was for each branch. Is that not correct?
I thought I recalled that the 500' rule was for each branch. Is that not correct?
TonyStewart
Active Member
That is correct. 500' per branch including wiring to all switches, hubs and scene switches. Do not count 3-way/aux wiring runs.
TS
felixrosbergen
Senior Member
SaceDog:
Yeah..the 500' rule is per branch as far as i know. It sounds like a massive amount of boards you're putting in. How many switches do you have or are you planning for? On the lower level of my place I know have 10 ALC dimmers and 3 aux's installed and so far have only used a singel distro module and thats it. I have not replaced ALL switches with ALC due to budget reasons, but even when i do i will not exceed 2 simply distro modules. I have quite a few locations where i have 3 switches in a box but only 1 of them is a multiway. (e.g. at front door i have outside light, outside floods which are both not multiway and the foyer which is a 4 way). For these locations i only run 1 cat5 since the 2 dimmer that are not multiway don't need their aux LV's connected and all 3 dimmer will sit on the same TX+ and TX- lines so total only 5 conductors needed. So this whole configuration only takes up 1 termination point on the distro module.
So far the only place where i needed more than 1 cat5 is where i had 2 4 ways and a 3 way iin 1 location. 3 * 3 aux's is 9 plug 2 for the polling loop is 11 conductors needed.
For the upstairs the first stage install will only use a single hub (directly connected to the ALC expansion module) with ultimate install possibly needing a 2nd hub.
Tony:
can you start recounting the 500' from any hub since the hub conditions and amplifies the signal? I thought this was one of the main benefits of the hubs over the distro modules, also ofcourse the the hub are easilly mounted in the field since they're compatible with 2 gang LV rings.
By the way, a 2 gang blank plate from Leviton will sit 'on top' of the hub when the hub mounted in the 2 gang lv ring. This means that there is 3 to 4mm of space between the sheetrock and the cover...making a not so nice looking install. If the boards for the hubs were just a few mm smaller all woudl work well. I haven't tried yet, but i plan to use my dremel or a utility knife and try to have a little bit of the inside of the cover to make it fit 'over' rather than 'on top' of the hub. Have you run into this before or how did you solve it?
Yeah..the 500' rule is per branch as far as i know. It sounds like a massive amount of boards you're putting in. How many switches do you have or are you planning for? On the lower level of my place I know have 10 ALC dimmers and 3 aux's installed and so far have only used a singel distro module and thats it. I have not replaced ALL switches with ALC due to budget reasons, but even when i do i will not exceed 2 simply distro modules. I have quite a few locations where i have 3 switches in a box but only 1 of them is a multiway. (e.g. at front door i have outside light, outside floods which are both not multiway and the foyer which is a 4 way). For these locations i only run 1 cat5 since the 2 dimmer that are not multiway don't need their aux LV's connected and all 3 dimmer will sit on the same TX+ and TX- lines so total only 5 conductors needed. So this whole configuration only takes up 1 termination point on the distro module.
So far the only place where i needed more than 1 cat5 is where i had 2 4 ways and a 3 way iin 1 location. 3 * 3 aux's is 9 plug 2 for the polling loop is 11 conductors needed.
For the upstairs the first stage install will only use a single hub (directly connected to the ALC expansion module) with ultimate install possibly needing a 2nd hub.
Tony:
can you start recounting the 500' from any hub since the hub conditions and amplifies the signal? I thought this was one of the main benefits of the hubs over the distro modules, also ofcourse the the hub are easilly mounted in the field since they're compatible with 2 gang LV rings.
By the way, a 2 gang blank plate from Leviton will sit 'on top' of the hub when the hub mounted in the 2 gang lv ring. This means that there is 3 to 4mm of space between the sheetrock and the cover...making a not so nice looking install. If the boards for the hubs were just a few mm smaller all woudl work well. I haven't tried yet, but i plan to use my dremel or a utility knife and try to have a little bit of the inside of the cover to make it fit 'over' rather than 'on top' of the hub. Have you run into this before or how did you solve it?
