Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[WayneW]

You stated that the "light" buzzed???? Don't you mean the switch? A true incandescant bulb (resistive load) can not buzz as it has no parts that make noise.

I don't know why, but I have heard incandescant bulbs "sing" when dimmed. "Sing" being a higher frequency "buzz".

 

[TonyStewart]

You stated that the "light" buzzed???? Don't you mean the switch? A true incandescant bulb (resistive load) can not buzz as it has no parts that make noise.

I don't know why, but I have heard incandescant bulbs "sing" when dimmed. "Sing" being a higher frequency "buzz".

Could be. I have over 55% hearing loss and a wide range of frequencies that I can't hear at all.

Eons ago I traveled playing rock and roll! I'll blame it on that!

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

Well that's kind of true....

But...... no built in "Scene learning" support is included when connected this way. So if you are wanting to use ALC 4 button scene switches, they (the 4-buttons) could not learn any scenes. Instead you would have to write lines of programming code for each button.

If you add the 1 branch interface ... then you can max out the system and there is no limit (outside of the capacity of the interfaces).


God Bless
TS

Hey Tony,

So does that mean with the 364806-02 scene learning is built-in without the need to write lines of code? I would assume for automation rules lines of code are still required? Using Units?

CB

Sorry, I missed this question until just now.

Both the 364806-01 and -02 (for the HAI Omni) and 364864-01 (Elk M1) support scene learning (64 lighting scenes max) without any programming rules/lines of code. And yes if you also want to use the buttons to launch other automation events you would have to write code. You can mix scene learning and coded events as well. But a learned scene will always run when the button is pressed. You can write "and if" type statements to limit when other automation events are triggered with the same button.

Example: Pressing button two (of four) will always trigger the learned lighting scene but may only start your coffee in the morning hours Mon-Fri.

TS

 

[beelzerob]

Am I screwed??

I ran a single cat5 to several switches, everywhere. And then I homeran everything. I didn't run any wires from switch to switch for auxillaries, as I figured I could do that down in the basement.

Because auxillary switches are also punched down in the branch hub, I thought that the aux was affecting the switch via controller commands. In other words, that I WOULDN'T have to connect the aux wires from the master switch, just the + and - wires.

Now looking at the diagrams again, am I seeing it correctly that being connected on the branch hub does nothing more special than just make the same physical connection as if the aux was wired directly to the switch?

So in other words, each aux-controlled switch requires a full 5 of the 8 cat5 wires. So a single cat5 cable will not be able to serve 2 switches that also have aux controllers (3 or 4-way).

if so...then I am totally screwed. Or at the very least, GREATLY screwed.

:throwup:

 

[broconne]

Am I screwed??

I ran a single cat5 to several switches, everywhere. And then I homeran everything. I didn't run any wires from switch to switch for auxillaries, as I figured I could do that down in the basement.

Because auxillary switches are also punched down in the branch hub, I thought that the aux was affecting the switch via controller commands. In other words, that I WOULDN'T have to connect the aux wires from the master switch, just the + and - wires.

Now looking at the diagrams again, am I seeing it correctly that being connected on the branch hub does nothing more special than just make the same physical connection as if the aux was wired directly to the switch?

So in other words, each aux-controlled switch requires a full 5 of the 8 cat5 wires. So a single cat5 cable will not be able to serve 2 switches that also have aux controllers (3 or 4-way).

if so...then I am totally screwed. Or at the very least, GREATLY screwed.

:throwup:

Ughh :-( I hate to be the bearer of bad news.. And Tony can confirm.. But I think you are right.. I am pretty sure, almost positive, that you need 5 wires for a 3 or 4 way switch for the actual switch

I think that was discussed earlier in this thread - or maybe I read it in the OnQ docs :-(

Are you able to pull more cat5 to any of these locations?

 

[beelzerob]

Well, damage control is beginning.

The worst spot is by the front door, which currently has 3 switches in it, 2 are 3-way, 1 is 4-way. Even if I put all AUX switches there and found room for the main switch in another box, that'd still require 9 wires for all the auxs.

*sigh*

With all the mayhem of construction and wiring, I just figured I'd take care of wiring the auxs down in the basement later. I didn't want to have to decide where the main went and where the auxs went (which you'd have to decide if you were to wire them directly). I just figured since the auxs were also wired into the branch panel that they could control the light directly through the ALC controller, instead of from the switch itself. Of course (now) that doesn't make sense, since those auxs wouldn't work if the controller was down then...which we know they do. I just didn't do enough investigation I guess.

The wire for the front door box comes from directly below in the basement, so there's a chance of adding a wire. I think I can make all the other boxes work with some thought about arranging where the main and aux switches go.

:throwup:

 

[AceCannon]

So, just to be clear for future readers - a standard ALC switch communicates with the ALC controller over 2 LV conductors. If the user desires direct control of this switch outside of the central controller, (i.e. a 3 or 4 or 5 way configuration), each aux switch must be hardwired to the ALC switch in question via 3 other LV conductors (call them on, off, and common). This is all very clear in the 1-page documentation file that comes with each ALC switch. The connection can be physically, directly to the switch, or hardwired through a central wiring closet location, but the connections ultimately still go back to the original switch. No controller intervention. I think we make it sound more complex than it really is by discussing it in such painful detail.

The distinction should be emphasized between the 2 conductors that are used to communicate with the ALC "network" and the others that simply directly close contacts to individual ALC switches.

Of course, in an automated system (CQC with ELK), any change in status with any ALC switch could be trapped and used to control any other switch.

 

[charliebarns]

So, just to be clear for future readers - a standard ALC switch communicates with the ALC controller over 2 LV conductors. If the user desires direct control of this switch outside of the central controller, (i.e. a 3 or 4 or 5 way configuration), each aux switch must be hardwired to the ALC switch in question via 3 other LV conductors (call them on, off, and common). This is all very clear in the 1-page documentation file that comes with each ALC switch. The connection can be physically, directly to the switch, or hardwired through a central wiring closet location, but the connections ultimately still go back to the original switch. No controller intervention. I think we make it sound more complex than it really is by discussing it in such painful detail.

The distinction should be emphasized between the 2 conductors that are used to communicate with the ALC "network" and the others that simply directly close contacts to individual ALC switches.

Of course, in an automated system (CQC with ELK), any change in status with any ALC switch could be trapped and used to control any other switch.

Yup I caught that a few weeks ago rereading the thread and went back in the next night and added two more cat5s to my locations where I knew I would have aux switches.

 

[AceCannon]

When I wired, I figured I could use one run of cat5e to a lot of locations. For instance, a 3-gang box with 3 dimmers, 2 of which will need aux control will work fine. 2 conductors service the ALC network for all three switches in the box. That leaves 6 conductors, three for each aux-controlled switch.

 

[broconne]

Well, damage control is beginning.

The worst spot is by the front door, which currently has 3 switches in it, 2 are 3-way, 1 is 4-way. Even if I put all AUX switches there and found room for the main switch in another box, that'd still require 9 wires for all the auxs.

*sigh*

With all the mayhem of construction and wiring, I just figured I'd take care of wiring the auxs down in the basement later. I didn't want to have to decide where the main went and where the auxs went (which you'd have to decide if you were to wire them directly). I just figured since the auxs were also wired into the branch panel that they could control the light directly through the ALC controller, instead of from the switch itself. Of course (now) that doesn't make sense, since those auxs wouldn't work if the controller was down then...which we know they do. I just didn't do enough investigation I guess.

The wire for the front door box comes from directly below in the basement, so there's a chance of adding a wire. I think I can make all the other boxes work with some thought about arranging where the main and aux switches go.

:throwup:

I am sure it isn't optimal.. And I am not sure the hardware needed but I would think you could get a device to detect a dry contact and with that and elk or CQC control the switch. Tony says not to use the elk directly because its measurement time for contact is slower than a standard button press. However, I would think someone has made a board that will not dry contacts, and open an output which you could feed into the elk.

 

[beelzerob]

When I wired, I figured I could use one run of cat5e to a lot of locations. For instance, a 3-gang box with 3 dimmers, 2 of which will need aux control will work fine. 2 conductors service the ALC network for all three switches in the box. That leaves 6 conductors, three for each aux-controlled switch.

Well, that's a good point. I think the only area I really have a problem is this gang of 3 switches. Even if they were all aux switches, that'd still be 9 wires.

Tony, are you sure that these aux switches can't share a common? They're just detecting the closed circuit, right?

 

[beelzerob]

Ok, so just to confirm....all I'm really lacking is 3 conductors, right? 3 switches = 2 wires for ALC +/- plus 3 X (3 aux wires) = 11 conductors. I have 8 in there now, so I just need 3 more.

Thus, I can try running in some 22/4 wire instead of cat5, mainly because I have 22/4 onhand, but don't have cat5.

 

[Sacedog]

This should be changed to the Help with ALC thread!

Anyone know the size of the wall wart for teh OnQ Elk Module. It shows 12v on the board, but I have three different wall warts that it could be, and I'm not sure which one belongs to the expansion module. (I should have labeled my wall warts in hindsight).

 

[electron]

Sagedog, since you started this thread, I can change the title if you want me to. Also, congrats on starting the largest thread in CT's history

 

[felixrosbergen]

beelzerob:

sorry to hear about your situation...hopefully it won't be too painfull to run the extra wiring.

My install will start this weekend...hopefully i wont have a similar OOPS.....at least we can all learn from each other...

See my smaller OOPS below...i suspect many will be running into this.



I finally came home from my business trip and found all the ALC stuff that was shipped. Due to time difference it is now 4am and i am in the basement trying to put this stuff into the structured wiring panel.

To others:
THE ALC MODULES INTENTED FOR STRUCTURED WIRING PANELS DO NOT FIT IN A LEVITON SMC!!!!

They have 2 tabs on the left and the little punch tinghy on the right, but the thingy on the right is vertically halfway between the 2 on the left whereas a Leviton SMC has horizontal rows of buttons. I suspect this means it wont fit in a Channelvision either. I havent seen Legrand structured wiring panels, but their hole pattern must be different the Leviton/Channelvision.

I am contemplating 2 solutions:
- remove the ALC modules from the mounting plates they came with and get some ELK mounting plates (SWP3) and transfer them to that. Physically they would appear to fit, but it would require drilling of holes into the ELK SWP3. Removing the ALC modules from their mouting plate looks doable but a pain (lots of individual screws).
- drill new holes into the Leviton SMC where they are needed. The tabs on the left side of the ALC modules are also slightly too big to fit into the SMC holes, so one would have to drill out the holes anyway...I plan to drill 2 new holes for the left tabs rather than for the right pushpin. This way all the original holes in the SMC stay the correct size and if i ever reconfigure the original holes can still be used.

How have others dealt with this?

On the upsite and slightly OT ...the 8811 protocol adapter from Aprilaire initially appear to be surface mount only, but if you put SMC pushpins where the screw are supposed to go then it goes into the SMC easyilly. The 8811 that i received doesnt look like the picture on the various websites though and does have the 2 RJ45 connections i was hoping for. For those that have one...what does your 8811 look like? I was expecting the red box. Maybe SETNET has the wrong picture up?