Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[beelzerob]

Well, I don't have nearly so solid a plan as "how many switches". What draws me to the OnQ (and iLine too, though this thread has won me over to OnQ I think) is the ability to wire for it NOW (framing is underway) and then implement the system as the funds and desire allows. So, I plan to run a cat5 wire to all of the switches of interest.

So for OnQ then, is it one long meandering run that starts and ends in the wiring closet? If I don't run a separate cat5 run to each switch, then how exactly do I pre-wire this? If I have to make specific design decisions now, I can do that. I've got a rough idea where switches are and what lights they control.

sacedog....geez, I thought you were already underway. I was hopin' for an exciting update on how well it works.

speakin of which....OnQ does have a simple RS232 or RS485 protocol and module with a serial port, right? I plan on an Elk eventually....but I have CQC now, and I want to be sure I can write the driver for it if I have to.

 

[beelzerob]

While I'm on the subject of how to wire for it....is this one of the lighting solutions that requires a neutral to every switch? And if so...is that unusual? Don't lights normally get wired that way? I need to know what's required before meeting with the electrician this Friday...but hopefully nothing extraordinary is required, because that was the whole appeal of OnQ...minimal electrician intervention.

 

[Ranger Digital]

beez, i am trying to send you a PM with a phone number but having problems. pm me please.

 

[TonyStewart]

beez, most likely you will not be running a cat5 from the can to each switch. you will likely have it go to a branch hub. how many switches are you installing? dimmer, relays.

All polling loop connections (2 wire/1 pair hookup) can be made from one branch cat5 run (not to exceed 31 addressable ALC switches in any one branch run). And there are 4 pairs in one cat5. But take Rangers advice and use a branch hub.


The AC wiring for ALC and any intelligent light switch, requires a neutral in every light switch box. Most electricians had rather make connections standing on their feet as opposed to on a ladder (as is done when making neutral connections inside the overhead light box). So, chances are the electrician will be wiring it in the light switch box.

As for serial there are a number of ways to go.
1. When using an Elk use the OnQ ALC to Elk serial interface. It connects directly to the M1 Bus, no other interfaces needed.
2. Use the OnQ ALC Serial Interface and link it to anything serial.


And, I would strongly recommend purchasing the Branchtech software and serial adapter. This allows you to hook ALC directly to your laptop. And it's also one tremendous troubleshooting tool. I just noticed that the module is on our site although the software is not listed but is a stock item. I will fix this tomorrow.

Hope this helps.

 

[beelzerob]

Well, Ranger Digital has (perhaps foolishly) offered to answer all my questions tomorrow. So that should help me figure out what the heck I'm doing in order to prewire for OnQ.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Beez, if it gets to be to much I will simply tell ya, hahahahahah. I, by no means, have all the answers on ALC. By the way, I didnt say "all your questions" did I?

I have one request: Buy something from Number20 (Tony) when you go to purchase. He helps out ALOT with his EXPERT advice on ALC. IMO he has the most knowledge of anyone I have spoken to on ALC (perhaps more than some of the On-Q tech support. Dont get me wrong, I am happy with their tech support!!). Tonys work here is in effort to generate business and rightfully so. We need to show him our support with ORDERS. I have committed to Tony that when we are up and running I would certainly come up with some orders for him. Hope others are as well as he is a valuable source and his efforts need rewarded. His site is WWW.SETNETPRO.COM. Start perusing it now for budgeting and determining what you need.

 

[TonyStewart]

Beez, if it gets to be to much I will simply tell ya, hahahahahah. I, by no means, have all the answers on ALC. By the way, I didnt say "all your questions" did I?

I have one request: Buy something from Number20 (Tony) when you go to purchase. He helps out ALOT with his EXPERT advice on ALC. IMO he has the most knowledge of anyone I have spoken to on ALC (perhaps more than some of the On-Q tech support. Dont get me wrong, I am happy with their tech support!!). Tonys work here is in effort to generate business and rightfully so. We need to show him our support with ORDERS. I have committed to Tony that when we are up and running I would certainly come up with some orders for him. Hope others are as well as he is a valuable source and his efforts need rewarded. His site is WWW.SETNETPRO.COM. Start perusing it now for budgeting and determining what you need.

Well thanks for the kind words. I do like to feed my family but I truly love this stuff and enjoy sharing what I have learned. And I have stepped into so many pot holes over the years that I strive to help others avoid breaking their legs like I did. My main goal on CocoonTech is to provide techical advice. Your comments about sales are appreciated and mean more than anything I could say.

In 2008 we will release a library of DVD's aimed at the same goals. One of the ones underway now is ALC. I won't promise when it and the others will be shipping, but our goal is early 2008 for the ALC. If the phone don't ring much, we'll get this done. Stay tuned to our site and sign up for our email newsletter for further.

God Bless

 

[TonyStewart]

Beez, if it gets to be to much I will simply tell ya, hahahahahah. I, by no means, have all the answers on ALC. By the way, I didnt say "all your questions" did I?

I have one request: Buy something from Number20 (Tony) when you go to purchase. He helps out ALOT with his EXPERT advice on ALC. IMO he has the most knowledge of anyone I have spoken to on ALC (perhaps more than some of the On-Q tech support. Dont get me wrong, I am happy with their tech support!!). Tonys work here is in effort to generate business and rightfully so. We need to show him our support with ORDERS. I have committed to Tony that when we are up and running I would certainly come up with some orders for him. Hope others are as well as he is a valuable source and his efforts need rewarded. His site is WWW.SETNETPRO.COM. Start perusing it now for budgeting and determining what you need.

Well thanks for the kind words. I do like to feed my family but I truly love this stuff and enjoy sharing what I have learned. And I have stepped into so many pot holes over the years that I strive to help others avoid breaking their legs like I did. My main goal on CocoonTech is to provide techical advice. Your comments about sales are appreciated and mean more than anything I could say.

In 2008 we will release a library of DVD's aimed at the same goals. One of the ones underway now is ALC. I won't promise when it and the others will be shipping, but our goal is early 2008 for the ALC. If the phone don't ring much, we'll get this done. Stay tuned to our site and sign up for our email newsletter for further.

God Bless

THis post is a long one, so I will try to summarize the big points in pre-wire for ALC

While no Hub is needed with ALC wiring, the Hub should be used for any or all of these reasons.
1. Any cable run is long (500 feet)
2. Combined cable runs going to the same branch (a branch will ahndle 31 switches max) exceed 500 feet.
3. You want dip switches for future troubleshooting (Must use the Ehanced Hub as No dip switches are on the cheaper HUB).

When using Hubs, group all switches together (in address range) that you may want to do "All on or All off" features for. Say all switches in the same room/area.

Then address these groups in house code banks (All living room on a bank of up to 16, all kitchen on a bank of up to 16). Start all addresses at the beginning of the range, say ALC address 1 for the Living room starts at Unit code (equivalent to X-10 House code) A1.

Next remember that the hubs only accept 9 switches at a time (and when you remote mount them throughout the home, pull one cat 5 from the remote location to the panel).

Lastly, don't forget that the aux (also called 3-ways or slaves) must wire directly to the swith they are a 3-way for. WHen using Hubs this is easy as each switch of the 9 possible on any hub also has room to punch down the aux (3-way) wires.

If you're not using hubs. Still remember the 500 foot rule. Each branch of 31 ALC addressable switches (don't count aux switches as they have no address) can handle up to a total of 500 feet of cable. EXAMPLE - Branch 1 (say of 4 totla branches in the install) has 12 ALC Dimmers, 2 Relays and 2 Scene switches. That's a total of 16 switches. If each one has 50 feet of cable for a total of 800 feet, then this is too much and you need a hub.

Please note that there are installers who exceed the 500 foot rule and never have a problem. BUT................

As for the Aux / 3-way, you can use as many as you want (for 4-way, 5-way etc), but here too, the total cable length should not get too long. Since this is a dry contact closure, the signal is naturally weak and should not be pushed too far.

NOW FOR THE DAISY CHAIN METHOD!
Another option is to "Daisy Chain" each branch (again not to exceed 31 total addressable switches on any one branch). This may keep the wire lenght lower and the cost of cable down. But troubleshooting a daisy chain is not a pretty picture.

However, should you choose to use this approach. bring both ends of the Daisy Chain Loop back to the panel. Don't just run the loop and then stop at the last switch. By returning the end of the cable run to the panel, you can still make the loop work, if it has a cut or broken point in the cable.

While Daisy chaining will work, homerun is my choice!

Hope this helps all you you who are planning a prewire.

 

[beelzerob]

In 2008 we will release a library of DVD's aimed at the same goals. One of the ones underway now is ALC. I won't promise when it and the others will be shipping, but our goal is early 2008 for the ALC. If the phone don't ring much, we'll get this done. Stay tuned to our site and sign up for our email newsletter for further.

God Bless

Well, spring 2008 would be the by far soonest that I could even contemplate actually converting the conventional lighting to an OnQ system....so maybe that DVD will come at the right time.

And I'll definitely be looking at setnet for shopping....all other things being equal or even close to equal, I'll always patronize a place that has such a strong and constant presence in the forums of all their enthusiasts. Elk also makes a strong impression to me for the same reason.

But I'm honestly still lost with the whole "hub" thing....since I have no idea what it is, I have no idea if I'd need it. So, let's start off with a simple scenario (and if this needs to start in a new thread, then please let me know and I'll post one). Then we can slowly expand on this simple scenario and I'll understand then when and where a hub comes in.

edit: I moved this scenario into a new thread since it is specific to OnQ, and that way won't get lost in this more generic thread.
thread is here: http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=8805

 

[stoked]

Can CQC control OnQ via an ELK M1?

 

[beelzerob]

Can CQC control OnQ via an ELK M1?

From what I understand (not owning either an Elk nor OnQ...yet!), if the Elk can control it, then CQC can control it.

 

[TonyStewart]

THREE POINTS (2 Technical and 1 Business)

First, while shipping product is my business, there are other quality suppliers who are active in this forum. I post here for a couple of reasons but sales alones not the prime reason for my advice. Let me explain. I built our company around principles, relationships are very important to us. If you already have a good relationship with your current supplier, don't risk harming it. Instead, consider us for something they don't sell. When I give ALC advice it's more to protect than to sell.

Meaning that I choose not to compete against legitimate suppliers (suppliers with real warehouses and ones who can offer the manufacturers warranty, call OnQ if in doubt about your supplier). However, I do want to stop readers from making bad product choices. This is a technical business and choosing the correct product is difficult. I do believe ALC is top notch and I’ll make this offer; We will accept from any manufacturer their product for testing. In this regard, we have adequate skills and facilities that will enable us to do a thorough product test. And know this: I am no stranger to the taste of crow features. Should I encounter another product that compares in features and price, I will from that day forward sing its praises. Until then, ALC is KING DADDY!

Second (now we start the technical stuff), never overlook the power of the stand alone ALC system. Sure most want to use ALC with controllers like ELK, HAI and OnQ, but the stand alone system opens the door for the DIY'er in ways dedicated controllers do not.

More specifically, use the stand alone controller and a serial interface to link ALC to ANY controller (or PC) with serial capabilities. The limit is the serial capabilities of the other guy, not OnQ ALC!

Third, consider the ALC Scenetech software and PC interface (Branchtech) as a way to expand the product and as a service tool. How? With Elk, HAI and OnQ controllers the ALC interface has two jobs. It's a method to link the controllers program to lighting. But it also has another little known feature. This ability is scene learning that DON'T require programming (no rules or program lines). To use this powerful feature you use the walkabout programming method (I created that phrase, it's not in the OnQ manual). Hold any ALC scene switch button in for 15 seconds to place it into "Scene Learning Mode". Then walk around the home setting on/off and bright dim levels of all switches you want in that button's scene. Then press the scene button one more time and the scene is learned - NO PROGRAMMING REQUIRED (try that with other brands). But, there’s a drawback!

The drawback is that since there is no programming the scene is lost if the switch is changed and must be programmed using the walkabout method again. With Scenetech, you can store the scene. And you can use the Branchtech interface to link ALC to your laptop for advanced troubleshooting.

One last note about features.

ALC is 2-way. Sure it’s a wired system that “talks back”, but an equally important feature of ALC 2-way is when used as an occupancy sensor. Here are some examples:
When your children wake up and turn on their bedroom ALC light, have the controller use that as a trigger to wake up you or Mom.

Or, when someone enters the gun room or wine cellar. And there are many more examples.

All these parts are on our website (and OnQ’s) but I want to mention something important. OnQ and other manufacturers want to protect the margins of their products (as well they should). To do this they insist that prices listed on web sites without a password be somewhat high. On our site YOU MUST LOGIN to see our best prices. If you request a better price when registering, we don’t grant it until one of us speaks to you on the phone. Another point is that unprotected prices displayed on the web (from illegitimate competitors of ours) may not qualify for warranties from OnQ. So, be careful when ordering from these sites.

Hope this helps.

God Bless.
TS

 

[Wigalo]

Number 20...

Any ETA on the ALC DVD?

 

[TonyStewart]

Number 20...

Any ETA on the ALC DVD?

We did the lesson plan and equipment layout. Now we need to build the training kit from ALL the ALC components followed by writing a few lesson plans. So, the process is started (that's the hard part).

When we film, I can allow up to 10 live online students. So, be sure your email address is current on our site (see the home page section named PASSWORD SERVICES) and once the email notice of the filming goes out, call us. Then you can take part in the filming. You will be able to see and hear the powerpoints and live classroom cameras. If you want to ask questions in real time, it requires a conference phone call that will cost approx. $50 to $75 for the day.

IMPORTANT NOTE - Rarely do we get to send the email notice due to the fact that we keep a waiting list. So, call immediately and get on the waiting list. This is the same process for all filming and it's a great way to get free training over the web. Over the next few months we have MANY classes to film.

PHONE CALLS ONLY - NO EMAIL REQUESTS ARE ACCEPTED

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

Number 20...

Any ETA on the ALC DVD?

We did the lesson plan and equipment layout. Now we need to build the training kit from ALL the ALC components followed by writing a few lesson plans. So, the process is started (that's the hard part).

When we film, I can allow up to 10 live online students. So, be sure your email address is current on our site (see the home page section named PASSWORD SERVICES) and once the email notice of the filming goes out, call us. Then you can take part in the filming. You will be able to see and hear the powerpoints and live classroom cameras. If you want to ask questions in real time, it requires a conference phone call that will cost approx. $50 to $75 for the day.

IMPORTANT NOTE - Rarely do we get to send the email notice due to the fact that we keep a waiting list. So, call immediately and get on the waiting list. This is the same process for all filming and it's a great way to get free training over the web. Over the next few months we have MANY classes to film.

PHONE CALLS ONLY - NO EMAIL REQUESTS ARE ACCEPTED

TS

PS - The conference phone call is not needed if you don't want to ask questions. And the cost of taking part is then free.