Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[TonyStewart]

Can more than one ALC dimmer be placed in a circuit to control a single light? If so, how is that connected? Does the ALC dimmer switch need 120V to “think"? In other words, how is the smarts powered? I would think the controller would have to be running for this.

Thanks.

If I understand this question right, then the answer is NO. Never parallel two dimmers of any brand to the same load. Should a higher wattage be needed this is not the way to do it. Instead, use a higher rated dimmer and if this is not pratical, use a relay switch (that don't dim)

First it would "DOUBLE FEED" the load and poses a shock hazard. Then should one of the 2 dimmers fail, the other would fail shortly therafter due to being overloaded.

Hope this was what you asked

Also note that ALC relays come in a true relay (15 amps) and a non-dimmer version (600 and 900 watt models available). the non dimmer is still a dimmer inside that has been factory set to go instant on and not dim. It is also silent (relays make a slight click).

The non-dimmer relay description is true of most brands and not just OnQ.

God Bless
TS

 

[TonyStewart]

jdog, yup and its great because the auxillary (dumb) switches are CHEAP and require ZERO programming - no code, no dip switches, no command lines, NOTTA!

"CONNECTS DIRECTLY TO ALC RELAY and Dimmer switches as a slave to provide multi-way local on/off and dimming control. Does not connect directly to the 120VAC load or system controller." From on-q's website, aux switches.

THey just are an extension of whatever you hook them too, if hooked to a dimmer, they dim. if hooked to a relay switch (just and off on switch) they just turn off and on.

EDIT: ANother super duper thing about on-q alc is if the panel goes out or loses power or your programmed gets botched, guess what? you alc dimmers AND the auxillary switches STILL work!!! cant say the same about all other HA lighting solutions. if you got HV power still in house, your alc dimmers and switches will still work!! (your programming switches wont work if your panel goes down, but so what)

RANGER YOU ARE VERY WISE!

When using the ALC scene switches, they can continue to work without a controller if you programmed their scenes locally and not via rules or programming code in the controllers. The best of both worlds is to use the "Scene Learning" of each switch and to add some rulle/code as well.

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

This is one of the biggest reasons that I like the ALC, and have decided to purchase the system (just placed my order with setnet last week). Here is why I went with ALC, and not another hard-wire solution or with a powerline solution. Note: some systems will do some of this, but none that I looked at did all of it (iLine was close, but it was a tad more expensive).

• Switches can be used as normal switches, even if the controller is not functioning (this way, I can get the switches in for Mr. Inspector, without having to have everything programmed yet)
• Parts are readily available via the Internet or local dealers (this is one where iLine did not fare so well)
• Reliability of a hard-wired system
• Do not have to home-run HV wiring to a centralized location
• Cost was competitive with powerline solutions
• Can be integrated with an Elk system
• Can easily be removed and replaced with standard switches (in case future homeowner wants that)
• Not complicated to install

Fantastic Sacedog, good luck with your new system. I'm very tempted by ALC, but I have a wife issue which disqualifies it. A single on click on ALC (like most of these systems) invokes the last preset-dim level. This is usually 10% because the last person to use the switch held it to that level before turning it off. I hate this feature, but it can be mitigated by the presence of light level LEDs on the switch. Unfortunately ALC doesn't have dimmers with light level LEDS on them, and even if they did, the AUX switches don't have the LEDS (and can't based on the three wire protocol).

Number20, tell me I'm wrong and you may get a very large order ;-)

--Bob

P.S. I'm surprised ALC was cheaper than iLine! Maybe I'm not factoring in the difference in the AUX switches (iLine AUXes are pricey because they're smarter than ALC AUXes).

P.P.S. I don't care if I get the parts from local retailers or direct from the manufacturer - as long as parts are available when I need them (forever). I think both companies have similar concerns in this area...

The OnQ ALC line has been around since 1996, and will remain. The perceived lack of support comes from the fact that OnQ reps take the path of least resistance and tend to promote easier to understand systems like structured wiring, intercoms and audio. Other distributors have been heard to misquote or mislead their customers in this regard. I can only say that the truth will set you free and you should expect more lies from a distributor who will tell you the first one. ALC is here to stay!

The parent company of OnQ is Pass and Seymour who is firmly behind the line. And I have had a little peek under the hood of the next model!!!!!! Some new stuff is coming that will be sweet. Go ahead and wire the same way, but be sure to plan for a few more scene switch locations. Not sure if the upcoming EH Expo will see mention of the new goodies or not, but product additions are on the way!

 

[TonyStewart]

I'm very tempted by ALC, but I have a wife issue which disqualifies it. A single on click on ALC (like most of these systems) invokes the last preset-dim level. This is usually 10% because the last person to use the switch held it to that level before turning it off. I hate this feature, but it can be mitigated by the presence of light level LEDs on the switch. Unfortunately ALC doesn't have dimmers with light level LEDS on them, and even if they did, the AUX switches don't have the LEDS (and can't based on the three wire protocol).

Number20, tell me I'm wrong and you may get a very large order ;-)

--Bob

Bob,

Good news -- the ALC preset dim doesn't actually work as you think it does. The ALC preset is a true preset and not a "last used" value. You can programmatically set a preset value on each individual dimmer using the ALC Scene Tech software, custom software, etc. The one caveat is that the preset resets to 50% if the dimmer modules loses power, so you'll need to have your home automation controller re-program the preset values of each dimmer on power-up.

On-Q has a good amount of ALC information available on their Web site (once you login), and their customer support team has been helpful when I've contacted them in the past. A great reference document is the "OnQHomeLightingManual", which is essentially a compilation of all of OnQ's ALC technical information.

Another resource is Worthington Distribution's forum -- http://www.worthingtonsolutions.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl . Just search "all posts" for "ALC".

Hope this helps,
-Bill

This is only partially true. If you are dealing with real old ALC switches (Several years old and pre-scene learning) this comment is more true than it is today. And if you want to fast path to get your lighting back to your favorite level then design around scene switches. If you are using ELK, HAI or OnQ controllers and the scene learning interface, you can set scenes without programming. Then regardless of any power outages, the switches run your favorite scenes as fast as you can press the scene button. And scene switches don't lose their programming after a power outage.

Note that of the three brands only OnQ controllers can control ALC without the scene learning add on board. ALL OnQ HMS controllers are made by HAI and very similar in most ways. The onboard ALC interface for the HMS line is limited to small ALC installs (less than 31) and also does not have the scene learning power of the add on boards.

But if you want to do scene programming or preset levels using the controller, then the OnQ HMS will not require the additional add on scene learning interface like ELK and HAI does (limited to 31 or fewer ALC addresses).

TS

 

[Ranger Digital]

Can more than one ALC dimmer be placed in a circuit to control a single light? If so, how is that connected? Does the ALC dimmer switch need 120V to “think"? In other words, how is the smarts powered? I would think the controller would have to be running for this.

Thanks.

If I understand this question right, then the answer is NO. Never parallel two dimmers of any brand to the same load. Should a higher wattage be needed this is not the way to do it. Instead, use a higher rated dimmer and if this is not pratical, use a relay switch (that don't dim)

First it would "DOUBLE FEED" the load and poses a shock hazard. Then should one of the 2 dimmers fail, the other would fail shortly therafter due to being overloaded.

Hope this was what you asked

Also note that ALC relays come in a true relay (15 amps) and a non-dimmer version (600 and 900 watt models available). the non dimmer is still a dimmer inside that has been factory set to go instant on and not dim. It is also silent (relays make a slight click).

The non-dimmer relay description is true of most brands and not just OnQ.

God Bless
TS

Actually, I am reading this question as "Can I have a three way dimmer ALC set up?". First off, no you wont have two ALC dimmers on one circuit controlling one light. You would have ONE ALC dimmer (that is hooked up to high voltage) that has a cat five running to a second ALC that is called an Auxillary switch which is also called slave, dummy, low voltage (no high voltage going to the Auxillary). There you have your 3 way set up. In addition, you an run mulitple Auxillary ALC switches back to the dimmer for 4 way, 5 way, 6 way etc lighting set ups.

To answer the "smarts" question, yes the dimmer is powered via HV however the aux's attached to it are powered LV thru the cat5's that run back to the dimmer.

Whichever way the question was intended, I think all the bases are covered now.

 

[Ranger Digital]

The parent company of OnQ is Pass and Seymour who is firmly behind the line. And I have had a little peek under the hood of the next model!!!!!! Some new stuff is coming that will be sweet. Go ahead and wire the same way, but be sure to plan for a few more scene switch locations. Not sure if the upcoming EH Expo will see mention of the new goodies or not, but product additions are on the way!

Oh, I thought the parent company was Legrand and Legrand owned Pass & Seymour. Do I have that backwards and legrande is owned by P&S?

 

[Ranger Digital]

TS, dont think I havent forgotten about you. Should have an order ready here in the next couple months as our project moves along.

 

[TonyStewart]

The parent company of OnQ is Pass and Seymour who is firmly behind the line. And I have had a little peek under the hood of the next model!!!!!! Some new stuff is coming that will be sweet. Go ahead and wire the same way, but be sure to plan for a few more scene switch locations. Not sure if the upcoming EH Expo will see mention of the new goodies or not, but product additions are on the way!

Oh, I thought the parent company was Legrand and Legrand owned Pass & Seymour. Do I have that backwards and legrande is owned by P&S?

I typed so much, my hands outran my brain.

Legrand is the owner of OnQ, P&S, US TEch, Vantage and more. P&S & Legrand were together the longest and P&S is a major player in electrical parts.

TS

 

[beelzerob]

Well, for good or bad, it's all wired and being covered with sheetrock as we speak. I ran cat5 to every switch of interest, sometimes 3 or more switches on a single run. So far, they ain't leavin' any space between the switch box and the sheetrock for me to fish the wire out, but hopefully the plates are big enough to cover me digging them out.

 

[TonyStewart]

Well, for good or bad, it's all wired and being covered with sheetrock as we speak. I ran cat5 to every switch of interest, sometimes 3 or more switches on a single run. So far, they ain't leavin' any space between the switch box and the sheetrock for me to fish the wire out, but hopefully the plates are big enough to cover me digging them out.

Excellent!
Fishing the cat 5 from off of the top of each box takes very little room. You will find this to be easy enough. But, you should be do it immediately after the drywall is up and before the painting begins. This is not to make the connections, but to test the cat5 to be sure that it is not cut, broke, lost etc. If it is (some drywallers are worse than others), then you can easily fish it out/replace it and then have the drywallers patch your holes. If you wait until the paint is up, then the repair process takes on a whole new aggravation factor.

Good luck and God Bless
TS

 

[beelzerob]

That's good advice....I can just find the end of a run, no matter how many switches it hits along the way, and hook up there to see if it works. If it passes my cat5 tester, it should be good to go. Maybe this weekend would be good, they should be done with drywall, and just have taping left to do.

 

[TonyStewart]

That's good advice....I can just find the end of a run, no matter how many switches it hits along the way, and hook up there to see if it works. If it passes my cat5 tester, it should be good to go. Maybe this weekend would be good, they should be done with drywall, and just have taping left to do.

Yes a cat5 tester will work. Although we are only using one pair of the 4, your tester will show any opens or shorts. In the case of an aux (3-way) this will use 3 wires of the 8 and your tests will show any problems here as well.

Some installers, instead of putting on and wasting cat5 ends just for testing (2 required), simply strip back the cat 5 and use an ohmmeter to look for shorts or opens. To do this strip all conductors and read from one to all others looking for shorts. There should be none. Then twist the pair(s) together on one end only, go to the other end of the cable and read across the pairs looking for a complete circuit which you should have. Now you have tested for opens and shorts. This is called "Ringing out the Circuit". I am an old instrument electronics man and prefer volt ohmeters over cat5 testers.

Never use a fox and hound for this testing (also called tone and probe or sniffers) because long cables runs will weaken the test tones (especially with cat5 due to the twists as well as coax due to the shields and drains) and fool you. And/or a cable may be broken but still touching and the test tone will jump that fooling you into thinking the wire is not open.

On a related thought, Here's a fine point about using an Ohm Meter. When on the times 1 ohms scale (x1) many ohmeters use a 15volt battery to supply this test power. This is sometimes enough to "jump" across a cable that is actually broken but the two breaks are still touching. Thus fooling the test. To prevent this trap use x1 initially and then switch to a higher impedance rating and test again. Since x10 or higher settings use a weaker test voltage, you may see an open that you won't see when testing on x1 with a 12volt test voltage.

Remember that cat5 is 26 gauge solid wire and is pretty delicate. And Drywallers and trim carpenters are not so delicate!

I make the assumption that you "Hume Ran" every pull for both the addressable (smart switches) and the auxs.

 

[beelzerob]

I make the assumption that you "Hume Ran" every pull for both the addressable (smart switches) and the auxs.

Correct! I don't think there was a location where there would have only been aux switches in a gang box, so I just homeran everything, and can do the connections down in the wiring room. Plus, that way I don't have to decide now which will be the powered switch and which will be the aux (not that it matters...but every decision I could put off, I did!).

 

[Ranger Digital]

beez, sounds like on all aux you did not run a wire back to the relay/dimmer gang that it 3 ways? It will work running it all back to a hub, but more of a pain. always easiet and best, imo, to run the aux directly back to the switch you want to control.

 

[beelzerob]

beez, sounds like on all aux you did not run a wire back to the relay/dimmer gang that it 3 ways? It will work running it all back to a hub, but more of a pain. always easiet and best, imo, to run the aux directly back to the switch you want to control.

Well, running from an aux location directly to the powered switch wouldn't have saved MUCH pain. Hehe...there was plenty enough pain to go around anyway. But since I was running a cat5 to every switch anyway (pretty much every 3 way shares a gangbox with something else), it seemed redundant to me to also run another line from switch to switch. I figured that since the powered switches only use 2 conductors anyway, that means I'd have 3 more pair to play with, so I could just take the aux switch, and tie it in down in the wiring room to the other line, and run it back up to the powered switch.

And again....I couldn't at that time figure out which was going to be an aux and which was powered, so I didn't want to have to deal with it...I had way too much to deal with at the time.

As long as it works, I don't mind some extra pain or time involved....just throw it on the pile.