Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[Ranger Digital]

Mav you are correct in that a 4 button program switch fits as a normal single gang. Meaning you can fit the 4 button program switches in any arrangement you desire: single gang, double, triple, etc.

What I am referencing as NOT fitting into anything other than a SINGLE gang is an ALC Quad Auxillary switch. Worry not on a program switch.

Link to quad:
http://www.onqlegrand.com/images/pdf/IS-0286.pdf This will ONLY fit in a single gang box as the faceplate that comes WITH the quad has a much larger opening than a normal switch.

Link to typical program switch:
http://www.onqlegrand.com/products/364720-01
or:
http://www.onqlegrand.com/products/364720-05 THese both fit a REGULAR opening.

Am I making sense? Remember though on ANY programmable ALC you must run HV to it.

 

[Ranger Digital]

I've had concerns about OnQ's products because the scene switches don't seem to appear as polished as some other solutions. Anyone heard yet about possible plans to have backlit scene switches?

Don't forget that you can use most anybodies scene switch. Well at least if you are using a controller like the Elk m1. More specifically you can use the best looking scene switches (like Litetouch) as long as they use a contact closure type. So the choice of scene switches is not limited to ALC.

God Bless
TS

I sure would like to see some examples of this as On-q is limited on the choices when it comes to programmable switch choices.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Number, I did not know you could use anyone elses switches. great to know!

Did you mean to say you SHOULD meet with inspector first? You said should NOT approach inspector. By all means they SHOULD do so.

And do you really make the connections on top the box? I never did understand how that works. There is no way to get BEHIND the drywall to make it look right. I ALWAYS ALWAYS put my connections INSIDE the box. Would like to hear more bout your installs OUTSIDE the box. Got pics?

I still would like to learn now others are using the ABOVE gang box connections for ALC. I think it sucks to try to do this. The best way I found is to run your HV and NOT use boxes at all, then after drywall put in remodel boxes and put LV outside of the gang boxes. Again, i think that would work best but FORTUNATELY I am in texas outside of big city which means there is no such thing as inspectors or codes (believe it or not) so I dont have to worry bout having LV and HV in the same gang. Regardless, I would like to do it right as possible and I am seeing that ALC outside of the gang sucks! Pain the bootay! Secrets? Trade tricks? I cant imagine being in a market where codes are tough and you have to put LV outside the gang.

 

[beelzerob]

Could you link to your switch? How do you plan to interface this to your ALC deployment? Elk?

Here's the switch. On the back, each of those buttons have wiring blocks for On, Off and Common, and no address switches.

As soon as I get the comms figured out, I'll be starting into writing a driver for it for CQC. That's my plan for control.

Edit: Duh...just figured out it was the same quad switch ranger has been talking about. And ya, I see what he mean...it is meant for a single gang box, all to itself..it comes with its own cover.

 

[Ranger Digital]

beez, I dont think the driver for cqc is about the quad, i think its about the actual address of the switch, thus rendering a quad not valid since the quad has no address. Does that make sense?

 

[beelzerob]

Oh sorry...when you asked about integration, I thought you meant ALC as a whole, not just that switch.

I really don't have a plan for that switch in particular....I just got it because I wanted to test out the scene aspect of the protocol for when I wrote the driver. Unfortunately, I don't think that's the switch I was needing...I think I need a scene switch with addresses involved. That quad switch is just 4 alternate switches in one...in fact, I'm not sure it can even be used to trigger a scene, since it's just a contact.

The only way I could think to use that quad is if I can identify a good location for it to be by itself, and I can get a wire down to it through the wall. That narrows it down quite a bit.

 

[AceCannon]

Could you link to your switch? How do you plan to interface this to your ALC deployment? Elk?

Here's the switch. On the back, each of those buttons have wiring blocks for On, Off and Common, and no address switches.

As soon as I get the comms figured out, I'll be starting into writing a driver for it for CQC. That's my plan for control.

Edit: Duh...just figured out it was the same quad switch ranger has been talking about. And ya, I see what he mean...it is meant for a single gang box, all to itself..it comes with its own cover.

Sorry I thought you were referring to the use of non-ALC scene switches.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Mav you are correct in that a 4 button program switch fits as a normal single gang. Meaning you can fit the 4 button program switches in any arrangement you desire: single gang, double, triple, etc.

What I am referencing as NOT fitting into anything other than a SINGLE gang is an ALC Quad Auxillary switch. Worry not on a program switch.

Link to quad:
http://www.onqlegrand.com/images/pdf/IS-0286.pdf This will ONLY fit in a single gang box as the faceplate that comes WITH the quad has a much larger opening than a normal switch.

Link to typical program switch:
http://www.onqlegrand.com/products/364720-01
or:
http://www.onqlegrand.com/products/364720-05 THese both fit a REGULAR opening.

Am I making sense? Remember though on ANY programmable ALC you must run HV to it.

Are the bottom two you link 'program' switches and would need HV? If so i assume you can't put them into a LV bracket right? This worrying me..i thought there was such a thing as a aux switch that was small and fits into a regular gang. My understanding was that there was 4 aux switches and i could just run a cat5 to it and be done.

PLease advise...this is very worrying as i am/was about to instruct the electrician to attach a LV bracket to each light switch HV box...

WHERE CAN I FIND USERGUIDES/INSTALLATION MANUALS FOR ALL THIS ALC EQUIPMENT SO I CAN SEE HOW IT'S WIRED?

 

[Ranger Digital]

Mav, yes the last two links are indeed program switches that do require HV thus you cannot (code wise) put them in an LV box of course.

There is such a thing as an Aux switch that fits in a single gang or even multigang boxes. It looks just like any other ALC switch. Here is a link to a normal Aux switch: http://www.onqlegrand.com/products/363145-12 It does NOT require HV and it used only 3 wires, an "on" "off" and a "common". Its best you run this using a cat5 from the aux switch then directly to the dimmer or relay that you want to control. You could run it back to the branch hub but its just easier wiring to go directly to the switch you want to control.

Now, the Quad Aux switch does indeed also fit into a single gang box. It comes with its own faceplate as no other faceplate will fit it. Thats why you cant put the quad aux in a gang box with other switches becuase of the faceplate needed. It will fit in the gang, just no faceplate. I am stuck and must put it in a gang with other switches and am figuring out how to make a custom place plate. I will take pics later and post them.

Also, the proper way to wire a Quad is to run TWO cat5's to the quad. Why? Eeach of the 4 buttons "requires" three wires: on off common according to the instructions. HOWEVER, you CAN use the same exact common wire for all four buttons. It DOES work and even on-q tech support tested it for me too. While they wont "support" that set up (meaning it wont be puplished that it works) it will work and work fine. Even if you use the same common wire, I know now to run more than on cat 5 because its cheap and if one wire or more breaks, i have a back up. Remember, the quad needs NO HV power, has no address and doesnt need to run to the branch.

quad:
4 "on" wires needed
4 "off" wires needed
1 common wire needed (four are stated needed in instructions)

so thats 9 wires, you need more than one cat5 to any quad if you want use of all four buttons.

Hope I addressed your concerns. You can pm me and I will give you my phone number.

ps. Why are you putting a LV bracket on EVERY HV switch box? Are you adding an AUX to every HV gang box in the house? I am a bit confused.

here is link to a programmable switch instruction sheet. I dont know if it will require you to have a log in or not. I can fax you whatever you need as well. http://www.onqlegrand.com/images/pdf/IS-0283.pdf

 

[felixrosbergen]

Mav, yes the last two links are indeed program switches that do require HV thus you cannot (code wise) put them in an LV box of course.

There is such a thing as an Aux switch that fits in a single gang or even multigang boxes. It looks just like any other ALC switch. Here is a link to a normal Aux switch: http://www.onqlegrand.com/products/363145-12 It does NOT require HV and it used only 3 wires, an "on" "off" and a "common". Its best you run this using a cat5 from the aux switch then directly to the dimmer or relay that you want to control. You could run it back to the branch hub but its just easier wiring to go directly to the switch you want to control.

Now, the Quad Aux switch does indeed also fit into a single gang box. It comes with its own faceplate as no other faceplate will fit it. Thats why you cant put the quad aux in a gang box with other switches becuase of the faceplate needed. It will fit in the gang, just no faceplate. I am stuck and must put it in a gang with other switches and am figuring out how to make a custom place plate. I will take pics later and post them.

Also, the proper way to wire a Quad is to run TWO cat5's to the quad. Why? Eeach of the 4 buttons "requires" three wires: on off common according to the instructions. HOWEVER, you CAN use the same exact common wire for all four buttons. It DOES work and even on-q tech support tested it for me too. While they wont "support" that set up (meaning it wont be puplished that it works) it will work and work fine. Even if you use the same common wire, I know now to run more than on cat 5 because its cheap and if one wire or more breaks, i have a back up. Remember, the quad needs NO HV power, has no address and doesnt need to run to the branch.

quad:
4 "on" wires needed
4 "off" wires needed
1 common wire needed (four are stated needed in instructions)

so thats 9 wires, you need more than one cat5 to any quad if you want use of all four buttons.

Hope I addressed your concerns. You can pm me and I will give you my phone number.

ps. Why are you putting a LV bracket on EVERY HV switch box? Are you adding an AUX to every HV gang box in the house? I am a bit confused.

here is link to a programmable switch instruction sheet. I dont know if it will require you to have a log in or not. I can fax you whatever you need as well. http://www.onqlegrand.com/images/pdf/IS-0283.pdf

Hi Ranger, thanks for the info..it's very helpfull...

Perhaps i was a but simplistic to add a LV bracket to all switch locations..i'll think about that some more.. basically the plan was to use this for either a ALC aux switch or a Russound keypad.

Are there aux switches from other suppliers that will fit more than 1 in a normal gang box and faceplate? Am i correct to assume that the program switch essentially makes 4 'inputs' to the ALC controller (and thus the automation controller/Elk_ so that those buttons can do anything from turn on the lights to close the drapes, whatever?

For now i thikn i will change the strategy to just increase the size of the MAIN switch boxes (e.g light switches when you enter the room) by 1 gang and make sure they can take a LV separator. Then i have a conduit run to that locations. I shoudl be able to now use this for a LV aux switch (maybe not a quad) or a program switch (since it's a HV box now), or a Russound keypad, or for another dimmer if needed.

I like flexibility..

 

[Ranger Digital]

Mav, I wouldnt put the Russound anywhere near the HV box. They really need to be seperate. Only LV controls for lights, triggers, etc should be put by the HV. HV interfers with audio. Keep that in mind.

You ask "Are there aux switches from other suppliers that will fit more than 1 in a normal gang box and faceplate? " Why not use On-q's? They are sure not expensive and you absolutely can put more than on in a mulit gang box. I may have explained it properly before? Only the QUAD goes in a single gang. the other aux switches use normal size faceplates. As far as other manufactuers, the Setnetpro member (Number20) said you can use others. I have ask for more clarification because I may very well want to use others as well. Maybe he will chime in shortly.

If you think you may need an LV or program switch to an exising HV gang, why dont you just run a cat5 to the location, tape it to BACK (not the side because drywallers are notorious for cutting wires anywhere near the front of the gang) and just leave it there. If in teh future you want to add a switch, simply cut with knife the drywall and put in an add-on remodel single gang box. I have done it many many times. Works great. The only issue is the new single gang box is sometimes VERY tight with those wide ass alc switches I sometims have to cut or grind down the side of the gang. Here is the single gang add on I am referring to: well carlon site SUCKS and so does lowes. let me see if i can find it. pizzes me off! Basically its a clip on type single gang box that also has a sticky on the side that mounts to an already installed gang box.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Hi Gents,

Fast approaching decision day here at last. I've been on 2 months delay with the town planning dept for permit (nothing related to HA).

Just to confirm a few things, the house will basically be delivered with normal wiring but an extra gang at most switch locations with a conduit up to attic or down to basement. The electrician will put a HV/LV divider in the box, that should satify the inspector.:

- For a 3 way, if i don't run LV wiring from switch to switch i will have to make the connections in the wiring room right?
- I suppose if the nomal wiring had the 2 3 way switches then i remove both, put in ALC switch in,run the 5 wires (2 polling loop an 3 aux) to the wiring room. From the HV wiring i would disconnect and cap with wire nut the now unused traveller wire. I take the hot and neutral from the load and wire nut them to the hot/neutral coming from the ALC switch, but i do this in the location of the 2nd 3 way switch. I then put an aux where the 2nd 3 way swich used to be, run the 3 wires to the wiring room, connect the whole lot in the wiring room and presto!!!!!

Likely ofcourse i will make a mistake somewhere and spend hour troubleshooting or start a fire.

I hope all the above makes sense, was hoping somebody could chime in to make sure i'm on the right track.

Due to the conduit i can run as many cat5 from wiring room to switch locations as a want. The extra gang can be used for a scene switch, microphone, paging system, IR receiver.....anything..

 

[Ranger Digital]

Hi Gents,

- For a 3 way, if i don't run LV wiring from switch to switch i will have to make the connections in the wiring room right?

I assume you mean if you dont run a cat5 from the Dimmer over to the Auxillary? Typically its easiest that way, however its also common to run the 3way wire from the dimmer back to a branch hub and also run the aux cat5 back to the hub. It makes for a more clumsy, bulking wire job but its actually a bit more flexible. Meaning if you run the aux wire back to a hub, at later date you can easily have that aux switch run something other than what it was originally intended. I prefer to have it run to the aux directly. Its just easiest.

What is the wire room? Is that where you have the branch hubs? If thats the case its nice that one central location worked out for you. I typically place the branch hub in a wall somewhere thats closest to the switches thats connected to the hub. Generally find its less wiring. BUT, its nice its all in one location.

How many branch hubs are you using? How many switches? Just curious.

Remember, have a divider in a gang box doesnt mean it passes code in all situations since dimmers are HV and LV. You know those rules right? Let me know if I can help.

 

[AceCannon]

So I just ordered a 600W dimmer and an aux switch for my electrician to see. I don't want to completely surprise him with the OnQ system, so I thought I'd have some hardware on hand to re-assure him it won't be a wacko install. We are framing now, so it won't be long before the wiring begins.

I know Beezlrob is doing a CQC driver for the OnQ ALC system, and that an Elk interface is available. I still don't know for sure which way I should be planning on going. (I will be using CQC and an Elk M1G). Perhaps Number 20 can help: are there any features of the ALC switches that the Elk interface does not support? I.E., there is a ramp-up to level, and an "extended ramp" rate.

 

[TonyStewart]

So I just ordered a 600W dimmer and an aux switch for my electrician to see. I don't want to completely surprise him with the OnQ system, so I thought I'd have some hardware on hand to re-assure him it won't be a wacko install. We are framing now, so it won't be long before the wiring begins.

I know Beezlrob is doing a CQC driver for the OnQ ALC system, and that an Elk interface is available. I still don't know for sure which way I should be planning on going. (I will be using CQC and an Elk M1G). Perhaps Number 20 can help: are there any features of the ALC switches that the Elk interface does not support? I.E., there is a ramp-up to level, and an "extended ramp" rate.

I am not aware of any ALC features not supported by the ELk. One of the main reasons to use ELk is there willingness to adapt to new features and changes in technology. While ALC has been shipping for over 13 years and the protocol has not changed. Should anything ever change, Elk will surely make firmware changes fast.....

I need to study the CQC system so that I am better able to make intelligent comments. ALC has spoiled me so I spend little time looking in the direction of CQC.

How long have they been shipping product?

One other note on ALC. This summer I installed an ALC relay 363142-11 into my attic to control my attic exhaust fans. I live in South Carolina so the attic is not the best place due to the extreme heat. But the switch has performed well. I consider this to be an extreme test of the product!

I also placed a temperature sensor in the attic that controls the on/off of the ALC relay based on attic temp.

TS