Help with Fireplace Automation

[cptcoconut]

I'm building a new home, and have nearly finished the pre-wiring, using a lot of the great advice from this site. I've read a few posts about automating fireplaces, but I'm still a little unsure of how to go about it with my specific unit. It is a direct-vent, sealed gas fireplace, and the manufacturer allows for a thermostat to control the unit, so it is safe for automation.

I have an Elk M1 Gold plus a couple of server PC's that are dedicated to AV, security, and automation. I'm still debating between Insteon and UPB for lighting/automation.

The fireplace is a Heat & Glo 8000CF-OAK. Here's the installation manual.

There's a low-voltage switch (supplied by the fireplace distributor) connected to two small gauge (22?) wires that connects to the controller in the fireplace unit. The controller has two wires labeled as SW1, and these are what the switch is connected to. The controller has a transformer that is specified as 3V (I can't recall the amperage, but it was listed on the unit, and was very low). When the switch is closed, the fireplace starts the flow of gas and ignites. There's no standing pilot, but it's the same idea, just a little fancier.

I want to be able to control the fireplace from either the wall switch or via automation (the Elk or a PC). I think a relay is the answer, but I don't think I've found one that fits the bill, and I'm a little unsure of how it will work with the relay wired in parallel with the wall switch. Can anyone help steer me in the right direction?

 

[Frunple]

All you need is an omnistat or similar thermostat. Works great on my fireplace, also a gas fireplace.

 

[CollinR]

Page 33, wire the two BRN wires to your Elk output zone. DONE!

 

[cptcoconut]

Hmm... I was planning to use the Omnistat2 (RC-2000WH) thermostats, but my goal with the fireplace is not to have it controlled based on the temperature, but to switch it on and off remotely (as part of a lighting scene, via a remote control, time of day, etc.). I only mentioned the manufacturer's thermostat option in the original post because I've seen other posts expressing concern over automating a fireplace, and that shows that it's relatively safe in this application. Could I achieve what I'm talking about by wiring it to an Omnistat2? I assume I'd need an additional thermostat above what I was planning for the HVAC system, so that is a lot more than the cost of a relay, and more than I was hoping to spend for this project.

 

[dutchyn]

I too am interested: we're planning two Heat'n'Glo Cosmo low-profile fireplaces. My understanding is that the controller choices are limited:

1. wsk-21 -- a simple manual control
2. wsk-mlt -- a manual and thermostat-based control

Since our main heating source is geothermal, the fireplaces are mostly decorative; but, I'd like them to be automated for emergency use in case electricity fails -- if the HA system can supply the millivolts needed to get the fireplace started.

Without automation of the fireplaces, I was going to install the wsk-mlt device so that the built-in thermostat would fire up the unit whenever it got too cold. But if the electricity goes out, the thermostat won't kick in.

Any suggestions?

Chris D.

 

[BrettS]

I want to be able to control the fireplace from either the wall switch or via automation (the Elk or a PC). I think a relay is the answer, but I don't think I've found one that fits the bill, and I'm a little unsure of how it will work with the relay wired in parallel with the wall switch. Can anyone help steer me in the right direction?

A relay would definitely be the way to go for this if you don't want to go the thermostat route, but I'm wondering how much this heats the room? If it heats the room significantly you might want to use a thermostat just as a failsafe and also to keep your room from getting way too hot. If it doesn't heat the room much, then you can probably just get away with the relay.

Connecting the switch and the relay in parallel would work, but each switch would override the other. If the automation system turned the fire on, but you didn't want it on then you couldn't just walk over to the local switch and turn it off. Alternately, if the local switch was on and automation tried to turn off the fire it wouldn't work and it would stay on.

Instead, I would only connect the fireplace to the relay and use a switch to tell the automation system to turn the fireplace on and off. I'd probably do it with X-10, just because that's what I have, but I think you could do it with insteon or UPB too.

Brett

 

[LightenUP]

I would think the CM-01 I/O module from Simply Automated would work here. Have you checked into UPB?

 

[AnotherOne]

I've wired my gas fireplace to an elk relay. It turns out I have a keypad - KP1 - in the room, so I use the F5 key to turn on the fireplace for 30 minutes or until the temp gets to 72 degrees. If the temp is above 72, it won't turn on the fireplace when you press the f5 key.

 

[Sacedog]

I have 2 Heat-N-Glo fireplaces. One is just decorative, and the other is a furnace, with a blower and thermostat. I wired the switch wires for both, so that I will be able to hook it up to a relay on the Elk (home wont be done for 6 more weeks). After going through the manual, it seemed that this was the best way to do it.

The 8000 HnG unit that has the blower, comes with a RF remote to adjust fan speed. I will hopefully be able to rig something up later to control this as well.

 

[CollinR]

The on board relays on the Elk have the capacity for this, no need to buy anything.

 

[cptcoconut]

Connecting the switch and the relay in parallel would work, but each switch would override the other. If the automation system turned the fire on, but you didn't want it on then you couldn't just walk over to the local switch and turn it off. Alternately, if the local switch was on and automation tried to turn off the fire it wouldn't work and it would stay on.

Instead, I would only connect the fireplace to the relay and use a switch to tell the automation system to turn the fireplace on and off. I'd probably do it with X-10, just because that's what I have, but I think you could do it with insteon or UPB too.

Okay, I was thinking that might be the case with the parallel wiring. So, instead, I could wire the fireplace only to a relay connected to the Elk, and then connect the low voltage switch to an Elk input. Then the Elk can decide whether the switch overrides the current state or not. Right? :angry:

As far as the relay, I'm not sure exactly which one to go with. I looked at the CM-01, but I don't like the "wall wart" nature of it. Is there an Elk relay that would accomodate the 3V requirement of the fireplace? It seems like I just need a N/O dry contact SPDT relay, but I can't figure out which (if any) of the Elk products will work.

Thanks for all the responses, and glad to see I'm not the only one trying to accomplish this.

 

[cptcoconut]

The on board relays on the Elk have the capacity for this, no need to buy anything.

Sorry, you replied while I was typing my last post. Are you talking about the OUT3 dry contact relay on the Elk? That's what I was originally thinking I could use, but the Elk manual lists it as "rated 4A @
12 - 24VDC". Since the fireplace is running at 3V, I assumed this output would not work. Am I mistaken, or am I looking at using the wrong on-board relay?

 

[BrettS]

Okay, I was thinking that might be the case with the parallel wiring. So, instead, I could wire the fireplace only to a relay connected to the Elk, and then connect the low voltage switch to an Elk input. Then the Elk can decide whether the switch overrides the current state or not. Right? :angry:

Right, but I'd use a push button switch rather than a toggle switch. That way you don't need to worry about designing logic for the elk to override the switch and you don't have to worry about a situation where the switch is off, but the fireplace is on because automation turned it on. In that situation you'd have to un-intuitively turn the switch on, then off again in order to tell the elk to turn the fireplace off.

Instead, just use a momentary push button and design the logic in the elk so that if the button is pushed when the fire is off, then turn it on. If the button is pushed when the fire is on, then turn it off.

Brett

 

[CollinR]

Correct relay output but 4amps at 24v is way more then your probably 10ma at 3v.

Me personally I would wire a switch in series to be used as an E stop, you can break the circuit wherever you like to shutoff the fireplace.

Basically the switch would become automatic vs manual stop rather then on/off.

 

[cptcoconut]

Correct relay output but 4amps at 24v is way more then your probably 10ma at 3v.

Me personally I would wire a switch in series to be used as an E stop, you can break the circuit wherever you like to shutoff the fireplace.

Basically the switch would become automatic vs manual stop rather then on/off.

That makes sense, and I like that idea as well for safety reasons. I'll have to consider that one.

I know that 4A @ 24V is way more than (i think it was 120mA) @ 3V. I was concerned that 12V seemed to be listed as a minimum on the Elk. Can someone confirm that the Out3 dry contact relay on the elk will function correctly at 3V?