Insteon reliability these days

ChrisCicc said:
That 3-hop "limit" is a misnomer, since the range of INSTEON is so much greater than that of Z-Wave.
Not really.  The 3 hop limit is built into the protocol for almost all the devices.  If you lose hops on the powerline you may not even get to a wireless device.  Some devices like the ISY allow you to bump up hops and that has helped me in some situations.   Plus I am 100% convinced the powerline signal strength of my dual-band PLM is worse than my old single band.  Wireless has not really helped me and ever since I started that conversion my reliability has dropped.
 
wuench said:
Not really.  The 3 hop limit is built into the protocol for almost all the devices.  If you lose hops on the powerline you may not even get to a wireless device.  Some devices like the ISY allow you to bump up hops and that has helped me in some situations.   Plus I am 100% convinced the powerline signal strength of my dual-band PLM is worse than my old single band.  Wireless has not really helped me and ever since I started that conversion my reliability has dropped.
 
Correct, the 3-hop limit is built in to the hardware, but not to software like the ISY, HomeSeer, and CastleOS. So for instance you can't have a switch in location A communicate with a switch in location B if it takes more than 3 hops for the signal to get there, but you can have a central controller controlling it from location A by customizing the number of hops, and those devices will respect the hop number present in the message they are relaying. 

Also, I wasn't sure about the signal strength on dual band devices compared to single band, and it's a great question, so I just looked it up. They both list an INSTEON "minimum transmit level of 3.2 Vpp into 5 Ohms". Now, where that falls in real world use, I don't know, I've never tested it...
 
Awesome guys.  Great discussion.  This is exactly what I was looking for.
 
It looks like Insteon it will be!  Close on the 27th of March so I'll find out just how many switches I'll be replacing!
 
ClemsonJeeper said:
Awesome guys.  Great discussion.  This is exactly what I was looking for.
 
It looks like Insteon it will be!  Close on the 27th of March so I'll find out just how many switches I'll be replacing!
 
Assuming you get an ISY (which I highly recommend), you will want to use Universal Devices Forum (ISY forum).  The support there is superb when it comes to the ISY and pretty much anything Insteon.
 
If you decide on an ISY controller.
Get one of the ISY994i series and not a close out ISY99i.
UDI has run out of memory space in the ISY99i series for the firmware and the last official release 3.3.10 will be the last update for the ISY99i.
Owners of the ISY99i series can take advantage of their update to a ISY994i series offer now in effect.
 
Thanks for the suggestions.  I am going to be going with HomeSeer + the Insteon PLM/plugin.  If it doesn't work out, then I'll pick up an ISY!
 
ClemsonJeeper said:
Thanks for the suggestions.  I am going to be going with HomeSeer + the Insteon PLM/plugin.  If it doesn't work out, then I'll pick up an ISY!
 
Are you planning to integrate anything beyond INSTEON?
 
ChrisCicc said:
Are you planning to integrate anything beyond INSTEON?
 
Yup.
 
Security, irrigation, audio, locks (though this will be Insteon/MorningLinc), shades and Voice (siri) support.  
 
Already have audio and Siri support working in my small testbed with HomeSeer.  The others will come after I move into the new place and start buying equipment.
 
Also, how well does Insteon deal with simultaneous signals?  (eg: two switches right next to eachother both flipped "on" at the same time).  I read that UPB has issues with this (either one or both of the commands are lost).  Does Insteon have the same issue?
 
ClemsonJeeper said:
Yup.
 
Security, irrigation, audio, locks (though this will be Insteon/MorningLinc), shades and Voice (siri) support.  
 
Already have audio and Siri support working in my small testbed with HomeSeer.  The others will come after I move into the new place and start buying equipment.
 
Also, how well does Insteon deal with simultaneous signals?  (eg: two switches right next to eachother both flipped "on" at the same time).  I read that UPB has issues with this (either one or both of the commands are lost).  Does Insteon have the same issue?
 
They wait for each other, so they don't cross paths. It's not 100% perfect, which is why it's not recommended for mission critical stuff, but it is several 9's reliable. 
 
P.S. Check out our voice support if you haven't already...
 
You can't have collisions on the power line and it is a bus network, so a signal owns the entire network until done at 60hz (60bps).  Insteon will retry, so what you will get is one or both lights will come on after a noticeable delay.   But at least it's not X10 where random consequences will occur, thanks to the checksum, collisions are detected and dropped.
 
Issues turning on multiple loads at the same time happen, but rarely, if you want to turn on/off multiple loads at one time you use scenes.  And you will train yourself not to turn on multiple lights at the same time, individually.  It's not really worth worrying about, IMHO.
 
More troublesome is the group/scene communication.  Group cleanup is used to verify the state of the loads after you initiate a scene, but it is bandwidth intensive since many loads have to be polled.  What Insteon will do is cancel group cleanup if a collision occurs, so retries will not happen.  This is where most failures occur, you will trigger a scene and one or more lights will not respond, but if you activate the light itself it will work using a single command because the single command is retried and verified.  You will also get cases where group cleanup does succeed and detect a missed switch and it will come on significantly later than the rest of the scene.
 
So if you don't have a clean environment (like me), have noise or signal sucking devices on your powerline, you will mostly experience scene failures and lots of trouble setting up links.  But still be able to turn individual switches on/off pretty reliably. 
 
wuench, since you mention that, I have a question for you if you don't mind. In order to prevent the issues you described, CastleOS bypasses the INSTEON scene/group functionality, and sends direct commands to each light in a software defined scene, verifying and retrying as needed, and guaranteeing all devices in a scene are activated as needed. We've heard from some users that they want us to implement normal INSTEON scene functionality, what are your thoughts about this?
 
Of course you should give the devices a chance to respond in a synchronized manner using group commands.  Provide a checkbox to override the default behavior and use direct commands.
 
Wow!  The Insteon debate continues...  I'm sorry I missed the early posts and didn't chime in.
 
I was an early adopter, and the early gear was, as many have noted, plagued with problems.  SH did exchange items purchased DIRECTLY from them, but I still have a drawer with many original devices purchased through a dealer.  It was such a hassle to return those I never did complete it for many devices.  SH simply wouldn't accept a dealer invoice, period, and I fought and fought on that. So as you've already heard, BUY FROM SH IF YOU'RE GOING TO BUY INSTEON. 
 
As for reliability, it certainly is much better, but it's not perfect.  I still replace 1 or 2 switches / year out of about 40.  My previous Insteon installation had over 70 devices and the new owner has replaced 2 - 3 per year, so his average has been about the same.  It was a tough decision to go with Insteon again after I'd had so many problems, but I did so because the newer equipment was "reliable enough", and because I didn't want to relearn a new system and technology.  I'm generally pleased with my current installation, but don't expect Insteon (or possibly any other automated lighting switches) to be as trouble free as a mechanical switch.  They go crazy if we are forced to use a generator, and I just lost two to a power surge that took out the whole house suppressor.
 
Re: turning on multiple swtiches at once...  I just tried turning on a local and two remote switches simultaneously (3-gang box).  The local was of course fine, and one remote triggered the load switch across the room.  But the other remote did NOT trigger that light (in an adjacent room one floor down) and it's normally rock solid.  So I'd say that in theory they are supposed to "wait" for each other, but in practice it's not quite that clean.  But with rocker switches rather than toggles I don't find we turn them on simultaneously, anyway.  A partial second pause in between is sufficient, so in practice probably not a problem.
 
Finally, re: having control via HomeSeer only...  I have to agree with others that the ISY is an excellent idea.  I have an ISY, and Elk and HomeSeer.  HS has actually become the weak link in the system, and I suspect it always will be.  There are not moving parts in the ISY or Elk, and they are much less complex.  In fact, I'm seriously wondering if I want to stay with HS long term.  They have had many problems with recent betas and versions, so I'll see what HS3 brings.  If it's as unstable as the present system I'll likely look for an alternative despite using it for many years.
 
Good luck with your system, and welcome to the addiction.
 
Madcodger said:
SH simply wouldn't accept a dealer invoice, period, and I fought and fought on that.
I don't know when you last tried, but I had 2 dozen or more replaced under warranty that were bought through an authorized reseller. Some warranty extensions are good through this year and for the ones that are past the extension they are still offering a store credit of original purchase price. You may want to try again.
 
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