Insteon reliability these days

[wuench]

wuench, since you mention that, I have a question for you if you don't mind. In order to prevent the issues you described, CastleOS bypasses the INSTEON scene/group functionality, and sends direct commands to each light in a software defined scene, verifying and retrying as needed, and guaranteeing all devices in a scene are activated as needed. We've heard from some users that they want us to implement normal INSTEON scene functionality, what are your thoughts about this?

 
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I wrote my own VB app for Insteon.  This was right after it came out.  And I never released it, because I was never quite happy with it.  So I appreciate how difficult it is to do correctly.  The programming of linking is slow and a lot of validation is required by the developer.   Implementing control is much easier, in comparison.  And I think most of your competitors just do control.
 
Personally I think even doing native control isn't the sweet spot.  I think supporting devices like the ISY and Vera are.  The ISY supports linking, etc, but they add some additional intelligence to make all the hassles of linking transparent to the users.   They do additional linking and programming so that no matter what the user sees a single scene.  (I think Powerhome does something similar.)  And their API is much easier to deal with than the PLM.  And I hear they are even doing single scenes for ZWave/Insteon which is pretty cool.   
 
So I would take a look at your competitors and see what they are doing and how well they are doing it.  If you want to support linking you have to do more than just the plain old Insteon way to do it right.   And it will take a lot of your time to do and then support in the future.
 
CQC I know just does control, and I think most users are using the ISY vs. the native PLM driver....

 

[jhdale]

wuench, since you mention that, I have a question for you if you don't mind. In order to prevent the issues you described, CastleOS bypasses the INSTEON scene/group functionality, and sends direct commands to each light in a software defined scene, verifying and retrying as needed, and guaranteeing all devices in a scene are activated as needed. We've heard from some users that they want us to implement normal INSTEON scene functionality, what are your thoughts about this?

The advantage of group commands is lower latency when turning on/off multiple devices. If the group command gets through of course. This is more relevant if you tend to have scenes of multiple devices vs tend to use devices individually. There are a couple places in my house where I often use scenes (e.g. kitchen light, undercabinet lights, pantry light, light over the sink are all linked together, although they can also be controlled independently).

With the i2cs devices, don't you get a status report after cleanup? So if you use normal group/cleanup communication, afterwards you could pick up the ball and try again with direct commands to any non-responding devices.

With i1 and i2 devices, couldn't you manually send a group command followed by cleanup direct commands, rather than using "Send All-Link Command"? That way you are using the protocol, you get the advantage of group commands but you retain control over the cleanup and can do multiple tries if necessary.

 

[IndyMike]

Correct, the 3-hop limit is built in to the hardware, but not to software like the ISY, HomeSeer, and CastleOS. So for instance you can't have a switch in location A communicate with a switch in location B if it takes more than 3 hops for the signal to get there, but you can have a central controller controlling it from location A by customizing the number of hops, and those devices will respect the hop number present in the message they are relaying. 
 

 
I am very curious how you accomplish this.  The protocol only allocates 2 bits each for Max Hops and Hops Remaining. 
 
Is there some secret flag combination that yields greater than 3 hops?
 

 

[BLH]

2 Bits have four values. 00,01,10 and 11.
Hops can be set to 0,1,2,or 3.

 

[ChrisCicc]

I just looked up the developer docs, looks like I confused it a bit off the top of my head...the max hops are indeed three, but the max devices are five:
 
"Since the maximum value in this field is three, there can be four actual hops, consisting of the original transmission and three retransmissions. Four hops can span a chain of five devices."

 

[az1324]

Isn't 3 the default value? So you're not really improving anything there.

 

[ChrisCicc]

Isn't 3 the default value? So you're not really improving anything there.

 
Yes three is default...I had it in my mind it could do five, but that was just me confusing the documentation :-/

 

[Madcodger]

I don't know when you last tried, but I had 2 dozen or more replaced under warranty that were bought through an authorized reseller. Some warranty extensions are good through this year and for the ones that are past the extension they are still offering a store credit of original purchase price. You may want to try again.ears

Thanks!  Of course, now the problem is whether I still have the invoices after the move from the original house, which is where the problem equipment was at.  SH was fairly good about exchanging equipment I purchased from them directly, but at the time it was a real battle over the dealer-purchased items. It was probably about '09 when I last tried, but it may have been earlier.  It left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth that has cost SH some sales over the years, but as time passes I'm increasingly over it.

 

[IndyMike]

I just looked up the developer docs, looks like I confused it a bit off the top of my head...the max hops are indeed three, but the max devices are five:
 
"Since the maximum value in this field is three, there can be four actual hops, consisting of the original transmission and three retransmissions. Four hops can span a chain of five devices."

 
Sorry to keep harping on this but...
 
The quote from the SH documentation is accurate, but misleading.  It implies that four hops are required to span five devices connected in series.  This is not correct.
 
All devices that can discern a transmission will repeat/respond to that transmission.  I have a 4500 sq. foot home with over 80 devices installed.  All but 2 devices will respond reliably to a transmission sent with 0 hops.  This is equivalent to an X10 transmission - no repeating by any of the Insteon mesh devices.

 

[az1324]

Yes it implies that those 5 devices are only able to reliably communicate with their nearest neighbors. Otherwise there is no need to visualize it as a chain in the first place. But no harm in clarifying.

 

[xtronics]

My experiance with Insteon has also not been disappointing.  Very simple system - 4 switches (2476S) and a control link.   I put these in 5 years ago and have replaced 7 switches and I think I have 2 bad again.  (It is not the contacts that go ).
 
I'm looking for an alternative that is more reliable, but I'n not finding UPB switches that are relay.
 
Any suggestions?

 

[JonW]

My experiance with Insteon has also not been disappointing.  Very simple system - 4 switches (2476S) and a control link.   I put these in 5 years ago and have replaced 7 switches and I think I have 2 bad again.  (It is not the contacts that go ).
 
I'm looking for an alternative that is more reliable, but I'n not finding UPB switches that are relay.
 
Any suggestions?

 
Do you really require relays?  Most UPB switches can be configured for non-dimming use.  I use them that way on ceiling fans and a few halogen lights and flourescent lights.

 

[ChrisCicc]

Do you really require relays?  Most UPB switches can be configured for non-dimming use.  I use them that way on ceiling fans and a few halogen lights and flourescent lights.

 
You should only use relays with fluorescents... most fan motors are okay with phase dimmers, but not all... 

 

[ChrisCicc]

My experiance with Insteon has also not been disappointing.  Very simple system - 4 switches (2476S) and a control link.   I put these in 5 years ago and have replaced 7 switches and I think I have 2 bad again.  (It is not the contacts that go ).
 
I'm looking for an alternative that is more reliable, but I'n not finding UPB switches that are relay.
 
Any suggestions?

 
That switch is outdated, they've replaced it with a much more reliable version. You might be able to talk to them about that...

 

[xtronics]

That switch is outdated, they've replaced it with a much more reliable version. You might be able to talk to them about that...

 
I've had several reversions of that switch over the years - every revision failed.  They never stood behind their product for me. 
 
I see that Leviton has 15A UPB switches - I'm thinking of moving on from insteon.  I think that UPB products should interoperate - so I could use a  SA controler with these switches.
 
The only problem is that SA isn't answering their phone or returning phone calls - had problems with theri website earlier - are they quiting the business?
 
I was also hoping that someone had a ethernet module that put up a web page or would respond to simple commands - not interested in Winoze only solutions.