Just got a house, where to start?

[dhome]

Hi guys, I just bought a house recently (built in 1978) and am looking to install some home security/automation. I stumbled upon this forum from google and have been pouring over the threads ever since. It has been a great source of information.
 
As I get started, I thought I’d ask for your expert opinion.
 
First, I’d like a system to do the following:
 
- 2 or 3 outdoor cameras (AC powered)
- 1 indoor camera
- 2 Linked smoke/CO2 detectors
- 2 or 3 water sensors (house has well water, sump pump, and ejector)
- Maybe a door alarm or two
- Text or email alerts
- System status and cameras accessible online (or through an app)
 
Budget: <$2000 if possible, but flexible
 
Thanks to this forum, I have some ideas about how I could put this all together, but I thought I’d ask for your suggestions first. I am most interested in your thoughts about what type of base I should build off of, like an Elk or something simpler? Wired or wireless? I consider myself fairly knowledgeable on electronics and programming.  
 
Any and all opinions are greatly appreciated! 

 

[tmbrown97]

As far as needs go, that's pretty basic - how far you take it depends on what you might want to do in the future.  An Elk is certainly a fun panel if you want to get into more automation.  If you have no desire whatsoever, there are cheaper ones that'll fit the bill too.
 
Cameras are also all over the board in pricing and functionality; for home use I'd suggest a good look at grandstream - they're a step above the other foscam type stuff, but without an Axis or Mobotix type pricetag.  Or even the costco specials aren't too bad if you want plug and play and access via their app.  If you go IP cams, you can try and integrate everything into a single app like eKeypad, or you can pick up the $2 IP Cam Viewer software.

 

[dhome]

@Work2Play - Thanks for your help, and the camera suggestions! I'd like to add more automation in the future, but I might try to go as wireless as possible. If I decide to focus on wireless devices in the future, is using an Elk as home base still worth it, in your opinion?

 

[pete_c]

Welcome to the forum dhome!
 
Lots of information here.  Folks are friendly and very knowledgeable here; many having done or historically started just like you.
 
You can see here the evolution of the whole combo automation / security "thing" has changed over the years.
 
Typically a DIY of your stuff will allow you to spend more on better hardware; after all you are doing the labor.
 
Wireless has been around since the early days of alarm panels.  There is nothing new about it. 
 
That said both Elk and HAI are the grandfather's of the first combo security automation panels. 
 
Both companies always have provided wireless sensor connectivity.  They are changing with the times.
 
Today many new companies are trying to replicate both of these companies combo alarm security panels using pure wireless methodologies (with batteries you have to replace on the gizmos).  
 
Its a race now (well it has been). 
 
It'll really depend on who spends the most money on advertising their wares; not really that any one is better than another.
 
Its like those old car commercials relating to benchmarking cars to the BMW. 
 
Historically I have used and played with wireless cameras.  They were only OK with low resolution stuff (SD).  Going to HD it gets more difficult unless you dedicate a wireless pipe just for one HD IP wireless camera; then its a bit easier. Then again if you are bringing power to the camera then you might as well add network; then if you are doing power and a network cable; then you might as well go with one POE cable to the camera.  Today I am using some 5 Grandstream IP HD POE connected cameras and they are doing well.  I also have Optex combo cameras and they are still just fine hitting the 10 year mark. 

 

[tmbrown97]

@Work2Play - Thanks for your help, and the camera suggestions! I'd like to add more automation in the future, but I might try to go as wireless as possible. If I decide to focus on wireless devices in the future, is using an Elk as home base still worth it, in your opinion?

Elk is just fine with wireless - they are compatible with Honeywell, GE, or their own sensors (or should you desire, you can mix and match).  They are also with a wide variety of lighting protocols that are well suited for retrofit.  All in all, it *seems* like the more expandable system... then again, HAI has more plug & play pieces if you want a huge bolt together system that runs everything.
 
Cameras - if at all humanly possible, I'd go as Pete said and try for POE cams.  I'd avoid the Foscam type-stuff; honestly if you can't get wires everywhere you want, I might see about doing my own wifi bridge in an area that can power a few - just thinking as I type; new 802.11ac technology means we'll be able to cram more and more onto wifi if you build a solid infrastructure, but I'd take hardwired any day of the week if it can be done without tearing down entire walls.

 

[dhome]

@pete_c and @Work2Play,
 
Thanks for the help again guys! That clears up several things. I am lucky that the previous owner of the house must have had a bit of the security bug in him too, because he installed motion sensor floodlights on each corner of the house. So I have plenty of AC-wired locations to install outdoor cameras, and I can probably fish through POE cables without too much trouble (we're still in the process of tracing the electric). 
 
So maybe I will hardwire the cameras, then use a wireless protocol for some of the other devices. So like an Elk M1, with a z-wave interface, then something like ekaypad to control everything? 
 
I think I'm slowly starting to piece this together, just have to do more research!

 

[tmbrown97]

Z-Wave is fine for automation, but for security you'll want a trusted security protocol - using either the GE, Honeywell, or Elk wireless.  Z-Wave motions shouldn't be used for security but they're fine for automation.
 
eKeypad works great - use it all the time.
 
All cameras I've seen use either POE or a power brick/wall wart so if you want to tap power like that nearby you may have to get a little creative... 
 
If you want to use a better camera but need wifi anyways, there are plenty of $20 bridges that'll convert a regular camera to wifi.  It's very easy to saturate your wifi network with cameras - each camera will place a hit on your wifi and it won't take many to seriously degrade wifi performance.  

 

[pete_c]

Yup; here the "core" of the HAI panel security pieces are wired.  (but do have HAI / GE wireless pieces in place)
 
Even though I have a sub panel for the legacy serial Omnitouch screens I keep one wired keypad in place. 
 
For the networked Omnitouch screens I still have added pieces of battery backed up networking and so forth.
 
It can be an issue as you introduce more stuff that needs power and you don't back up the power. 
 
IE: say you utilize a wireless device / networked device whether a PDA phone or tablet or in wall POE touchscreen as a console to your panel.
 
Any of the transport pieces that fail between the tablet/phone/in wall POE touchscreen and your security hardware will cause a disconnect and issues. 
 
Lights are lights are lights; if you don't have a generator the lights will be off no matter what technology you utilize. 
 
The best and/or most efficient lighting technology will not work with no power; no matter what. 
 
Its really what you are most comfortable with and what works for you that is most important.
 
Many folks today still utilize X10; primitive as it is; being some 35 years old or so; it still works just fine for many folks.
 
Whatever it is I utilize; I still have to justify the replacement (WAF) of a $2.00 light switch with a $50 to $200 light switch.
 
Home automation is a hobby; so I use that as my justification.
 
Dumb analogy (relating to security stuff); but think of it as an onion with the center/core of the onion being the most important pieces; baby steps here; peel back one layer at a time and have a close look at what each layer provides to you relating to security and automation stuff.  IE: one layer closer to the core which changes or doesn't work can affect the rest of the most out cores of the onion. 

 

[dhome]

Thanks again for the help guys. I've been doing more research based on your comments and recommendations, and I think I have some of the basics put together. 
 
Base system:
Elk M1 ~ $600
Elk M1XEP Ethernet ~ $234
ekeypad ~ $100
 
Total = $934
 
Cameras
Grandstream GXV3672 ~ $156x2 = $312
Indoor camera ~ $100
 
Total = $412
 
Honeywell wireless (seemed the most versatile) 
Elk M1XRF2H Honeywell Wireless ~ $118
Honeywell 5821 Wireless temp sensor ~ $35x2 = $70
Honeywell 470Pb Water probes ~ $17x2 = $34
Honeywell 5808w3 Smoke and heat detector ~ $80x2 = $160
Honeywell 5800CO CO2 detector ~ $96x2 = $192
 
Total = $574
 
Grand total = $1920
 
So the question is, what am I forgetting? Should I get cellular signal adapter for the M1? Do I need a PoE hub for the cameras (it says they can work off with non-powered ethernet and an AC source)? I still have to look at backup power too! 
 
Am I missing something, or is there a cheaper/better alternative for any of the components? 
 
A HUGE thank you again for all your help! 
 

 

[tmbrown97]

I would definitely power the cameras over POE rather than AC local to them - it's just easier and cleaner.  
Some of my favorites: 4 POE and 4 Non POE Gigabit    or   8-port POE Gigabit

 

[Neurorad]

Maybe more people will chime in with specific suggestions, for additional spending.
 
Short of that, I'd talk it over with a salesman at a vendor.  Call a couple, find one with good customer support - a place that will answer questions, with actual knowledgeable people.
 
You should consider Automated Outlet and ASIHome/Worthington.  
 
I think it's worth a few more dollars to buy from a place with good support.  Don't just look for the lowest price, for alarm.

 

[tmbrown97]

I can also help with probably everything on your list if you'd like - I can do good pricing and still have valid warranties because I'm not violating pricing policies by posting things online.

 

[dhome]

Thanks again for your help guys. I will do a final bit of research over thanksgiving and settle on my selections! 
 
@Work2Play - thanks for the offer, I'll keep you updated

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

Support matters!

 

[EyeofSauron]

I would definitely power the cameras over POE rather than AC local to them - it's just easier and cleaner.
Some of my favorites: 4 POE and 4 Non POE Gigabit    or   8-port POE Gigabit

 
 
Read the bolded sentence above.  Read it over-and-over until it you are muttering it in your sleep.  It's that important. 
 
There is no such thing as a "wireless" camera, since you have to at least power it.  Wall-warts are ugly, and really limit where you can locate the camera. 
 
In terms of one-cable solutions, conventional analog CCTV uses Siamese cable, which is usually RG6 for video, and 18/2 for power, in a single cable.  IP cameras use regular ethernet Cat5/6 cable, and it's a MUCH cleaner install, particularly when you use PoE to power the camera.
 
Go PoE, and go hard-wired.  You will NOT regret doing so.
 
If you decide to go wireless (eg. wifi camera, powered locally with a wall-wart), realize that you have multiple things working against you: RF interference, range limitations, bandwidth, latency, etc.  Not to mention the selection of quality wifi cameras is quite small, with limited form-factors, and fewer mounting options. 
 
Not to mention the security concerns... a wifi-camera system can be knocked off-line, and effectively blinded, by a 14yo kid with a laptop and a pringles can.