Largest UPB Installation?

[Edenlights]

I have had several homes like what you are talking about Z, it has always been more of a issue of signal strength across phases with multiple breaker panels that were spread out all over the place. The homes are usually ones that have been heavily remodeled. We have always used multiple inverting couplers to get by, but still see signals in the low teens. We have not had any problems with any GENII installs yet and have been looking for a chance to use the new repeater when we see these problems again. No, I dont plan to play with any past installs, too scarey.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Anthony, I missed all the horror stories on ALC. Have had great luck. Course they suck for retro.

If you had never done upb and was looking for a new solution, would you consider upb given all the horror stories now? LOL I wouldnt throw ALC out. But, cant wait to hear more about your Vantage motivation. I have yet to price it but should since a rep at the builders show said i would be suprised at how low it was. I dont believe him though, lol

 

[nightwalker]

I agree, ALC is the way to go, if you can. The retro market is growing much faster and for retro most of us are stuck with either UPB or Zwave as the best of the bunch, in my opinion. They both have pluses and minuses associated with them and both can be interfered with depending on the house you put them in. Generally I use UPB for retro's, it works well for all but the huge places, 7000sf and up. When you get to that level of house there ends up being a fair amount of steel in place that can also interfere with Zwave.

I've had places in houses that i just couldn't get a Zwave switch to even show on the network, let alone operate. So far I've been able to overcome all but the most extreme conditions using UPB and extra phase couplers plus a few filters.

As it turns out Retrofitting house can be a crap shoot no matter which way you go some days If you're doing new though, ALC will cut your callbacks to almost zero.

 

[webmtn]

Some good input here...

AnthonyZ - Do you think your problems are specific to HAI products or do you think any UPB brand would have the same issues?

Steve - Could you prgram your switches on the bench prior to taking them out to the job (to avoid having to program so much in a noisy environment) or is that not practical with UPB?

webmtn - Thanks for the clarification on UPB capacity. I can't see needing more than 1 NID in most situations. One concern a lot of potential UPB users have is that there do not seem to be many new devices being introduced. There are plenty of new versions and brands of the same device types, switches and keypads, but where are the screw-in modules and wireless remotes? Seems like these are long overdue considering how long UPB has been available.

upstatemike:
Sorry for the delay in responding. I wanted to respond to your comment about the lack of new devices being introduced. The main reason for this is that all of the UPB vendors have been focused on adding Gen2 to their devices. This activity is now underway and a substantial amount of this activity is completed. You will now see the attention shift to new products. In fact, there have been some notable additions to the product lines recently. PCS has added an split phase repeater. Simply Automated has added a 3 phase repeater. There will be some new product announcements at the EHX show this week in Orlando. Web Mountain will have some new announcements shortly. So, you should see some new devices very soon.

There are implementations for integrating wireless with UPB using some Linear products. There is a receiver that will provide contact closures, which can be detected and converted in UPB signals by using the UPB CM-01 IO module. There are three different wireless transmitters that work with this one receiver - a keyfob, a handheld remote, and a motion detector. It's not as cheap and not as efficient as an integrated unit, but works very well. In addition, multiple dealers have integrated UPB with their IR / RF controller base stations using a PIM. You can find an app note for one unit here: http://www.digitalavnew.com/RP6%20control%20of%20UPB_LR.pdf.

Let me comment on Gen2 also. The main enhancement for Gen2 is the ability of the "core" firmware to work in a noisier environment. Most of the other enhancements that have been implemented in some vendors devices at the same time are not specifically Gen2, but are just enhancements or differentiation to the product. You'll hear about LED color changes, auto timers, etc. These are nice feature additions, but not specifically Gen2 changes. Again, Gen2 refers to the improved ability to work in noisy environment.

Hope this helps.

 

[upstatemike]

upstatemike:
Sorry for the delay in responding. I wanted to respond to your comment about the lack of new devices being introduced. The main reason for this is that all of the UPB vendors have been focused on adding Gen2 to their devices. This activity is now underway and a substantial amount of this activity is completed. You will now see the attention shift to new products. In fact, there have been some notable additions to the product lines recently. PCS has added an split phase repeater. Simply Automated has added a 3 phase repeater. There will be some new product announcements at the EHX show this week in Orlando. Web Mountain will have some new announcements shortly. So, you should see some new devices very soon.

There are implementations for integrating wireless with UPB using some Linear products. There is a receiver that will provide contact closures, which can be detected and converted in UPB signals by using the UPB CM-01 IO module. There are three different wireless transmitters that work with this one receiver - a keyfob, a handheld remote, and a motion detector. It's not as cheap and not as efficient as an integrated unit, but works very well. In addition, multiple dealers have integrated UPB with their IR / RF controller base stations using a PIM. You can find an app note for one unit here: http://www.digitalavnew.com/RP6%20control%20of%20UPB_LR.pdf.

Let me comment on Gen2 also. The main enhancement for Gen2 is the ability of the "core" firmware to work in a noisier environment. Most of the other enhancements that have been implemented in some vendors devices at the same time are not specifically Gen2, but are just enhancements or differentiation to the product. You'll hear about LED color changes, auto timers, etc. These are nice feature additions, but not specifically Gen2 changes. Again, Gen2 refers to the improved ability to work in noisy environment.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the update; I'll be looking forward to seeing what new items are introduced at EHX. We are now several years into the "post X-10" era and a lot of folks are wondering when we will see some key things addressed among all of the new lighting technologies, not just UPB. Some of the most anxiously awaited items include:

1- The ability to upgrade light switch firmware in the field. This has been a huge aggravation for users of all of the new lighting technologies that depend on firmware for their advanced features. Regardless of whether it is to repair a firmware defect or to add next generation features, it has become a serious source of discontent among professional installers and DIY'ers alike to keep changing out recently installed devices for no other reason than to upgrade the firmware. It is long past time for this industry to provide a method to upgrade firmware in the field.

2- More retrofit type devices. All of the new technologies have focused on devices for new construction and have not given enough attention to the retrofit market. Some newer technologies do not yet offer a screw-in version of their product while others (including RF based ones) do not offer a wireless battery "stick-a-switch" type of device in their product mix. And all current switches are just plain deeper than they need to be, which is important if you don't have the luxury of specifying deep electrical boxes the way you can in new construction. Even professional installers have to take on more retrofit work these days and it is time the automated lighting industry started producing more devices for this market.

3- Motion switches integrated with the new lighting technologies. Currently you can buy nice reliable stand-alone motion switches OR you can buy a UPB, Insteon, Z-Wave, etc switch and hack together some sort of motion compromise using security sensors and the like. I think there is plenty of demand to justify producing nice, motion sensing, replacement switches that are also controllable by UPB, Z-Wave, or Insteon.

4- Dual load switches. I know there are some engineering challenges in putting multiple dimmers into a single switch body but multiple relay switches should be pretty simple. There are enough situations where an existing dual-load conventional switch needs to be automated to justify adding these devices to the catalog for all of the new lighting technologies.

5- Realistic Ceiling Fan Modules. There is actually quite a bit of space available under the cover of a ceiling fan but the central shaft requires anything under there to be either quite small or sharply curved. The so called in-line modules currently offered do not really fit that easily into many ceiling fan situations and are not very practical in their current form. Folks are ready for some modules shaped specifically for ceiling fan installations, preferably a dual device to independently control the light and fan.

6- Better Central Management. Most of the new lighting technologies still depend too much on physical interaction for key management activities like device discovery or factory resets. It is time for the "next generation" devices that allow full remote management that allows everything apart from mounting the device to be done remotely. Professional installers need to be able to do more configuration and troubleshooting activities without sending a man on site and DIY'ers need to be able to better manage their investment without running around holding down switch paddles or tapping reset buttons.


Heres hoping for good news from EHX this year!

 

[webmtn]

upstatemike:
Sorry for the delay in responding. I wanted to respond to your comment about the lack of new devices being introduced. The main reason for this is that all of the UPB vendors have been focused on adding Gen2 to their devices. This activity is now underway and a substantial amount of this activity is completed. You will now see the attention shift to new products. In fact, there have been some notable additions to the product lines recently. PCS has added an split phase repeater. Simply Automated has added a 3 phase repeater. There will be some new product announcements at the EHX show this week in Orlando. Web Mountain will have some new announcements shortly. So, you should see some new devices very soon.

There are implementations for integrating wireless with UPB using some Linear products. There is a receiver that will provide contact closures, which can be detected and converted in UPB signals by using the UPB CM-01 IO module. There are three different wireless transmitters that work with this one receiver - a keyfob, a handheld remote, and a motion detector. It's not as cheap and not as efficient as an integrated unit, but works very well. In addition, multiple dealers have integrated UPB with their IR / RF controller base stations using a PIM. You can find an app note for one unit here: http://www.digitalavnew.com/RP6%20control%20of%20UPB_LR.pdf.

Let me comment on Gen2 also. The main enhancement for Gen2 is the ability of the "core" firmware to work in a noisier environment. Most of the other enhancements that have been implemented in some vendors devices at the same time are not specifically Gen2, but are just enhancements or differentiation to the product. You'll hear about LED color changes, auto timers, etc. These are nice feature additions, but not specifically Gen2 changes. Again, Gen2 refers to the improved ability to work in noisy environment.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the update; I'll be looking forward to seeing what new items are introduced at EHX. We are now several years into the "post X-10" era and a lot of folks are wondering when we will see some key things addressed among all of the new lighting technologies, not just UPB. Some of the most anxiously awaited items include:

1- The ability to upgrade light switch firmware in the field. This has been a huge aggravation for users of all of the new lighting technologies that depend on firmware for their advanced features. Regardless of whether it is to repair a firmware defect or to add next generation features, it has become a serious source of discontent among professional installers and DIY'ers alike to keep changing out recently installed devices for no other reason than to upgrade the firmware. It is long past time for this industry to provide a method to upgrade firmware in the field.

2- More retrofit type devices. All of the new technologies have focused on devices for new construction and have not given enough attention to the retrofit market. Some newer technologies do not yet offer a screw-in version of their product while others (including RF based ones) do not offer a wireless battery "stick-a-switch" type of device in their product mix. And all current switches are just plain deeper than they need to be, which is important if you don't have the luxury of specifying deep electrical boxes the way you can in new construction. Even professional installers have to take on more retrofit work these days and it is time the automated lighting industry started producing more devices for this market.

3- Motion switches integrated with the new lighting technologies. Currently you can buy nice reliable stand-alone motion switches OR you can buy a UPB, Insteon, Z-Wave, etc switch and hack together some sort of motion compromise using security sensors and the like. I think there is plenty of demand to justify producing nice, motion sensing, replacement switches that are also controllable by UPB, Z-Wave, or Insteon.

4- Dual load switches. I know there are some engineering challenges in putting multiple dimmers into a single switch body but multiple relay switches should be pretty simple. There are enough situations where an existing dual-load conventional switch needs to be automated to justify adding these devices to the catalog for all of the new lighting technologies.

5- Realistic Ceiling Fan Modules. There is actually quite a bit of space available under the cover of a ceiling fan but the central shaft requires anything under there to be either quite small or sharply curved. The so called in-line modules currently offered do not really fit that easily into many ceiling fan situations and are not very practical in their current form. Folks are ready for some modules shaped specifically for ceiling fan installations, preferably a dual device to independently control the light and fan.

6- Better Central Management. Most of the new lighting technologies still depend too much on physical interaction for key management activities like device discovery or factory resets. It is time for the "next generation" devices that allow full remote management that allows everything apart from mounting the device to be done remotely. Professional installers need to be able to do more configuration and troubleshooting activities without sending a man on site and DIY'ers need to be able to better manage their investment without running around holding down switch paddles or tapping reset buttons.


Heres hoping for good news from EHX this year!

Upstatemike:

Wonderful input! I know that at one time or another, all of these ideas have been discussed by the various manufacturers. There have been a couple of attempts at some of the ideas above, but nothing finalized. PCS was showing a wireless interface at EHX based upon the Enocean energy harvesting technology. SAI was working on a dual load switch at one time, but I'm not sure where that is. Web Mountain is working on some remote access applications.

Let me ask a question. I've been wondering about the application for a dual load switch in a retrofit situation. I can see this in new construction, but it would seem the applications in retrofits would be limited. There's already a spot for each switch and the wiring is there for existing switches. To make much use of a dual switch, in most cases, wouldn't you need to cut in a new box and run the wiring for it? If you're trying to find a spot for a multi-button controller, there are combination faceplates available for UPB switches that allow for a load control plus control buttons. What am I missing?

Thanks.

 

[toymaster458]

1- The ability to upgrade light switch firmware in the field. This has been a huge aggravation for users of all of the new lighting technologies that depend on firmware for their advanced features. Regardless of whether it is to repair a firmware defect or to add next generation features, it has become a serious source of discontent among professional installers and DIY'ers alike to keep changing out recently installed devices for no other reason than to upgrade the firmware. It is long past time for this industry to provide a method to upgrade firmware in the field.

2- More retrofit type devices. All of the new technologies have focused on devices for new construction and have not given enough attention to the retrofit market. Some newer technologies do not yet offer a screw-in version of their product while others (including RF based ones) do not offer a wireless battery "stick-a-switch" type of device in their product mix. And all current switches are just plain deeper than they need to be, which is important if you don't have the luxury of specifying deep electrical boxes the way you can in new construction. Even professional installers have to take on more retrofit work these days and it is time the automated lighting industry started producing more devices for this market.

4- Dual load switches. I know there are some engineering challenges in putting multiple dimmers into a single switch body but multiple relay switches should be pretty simple. There are enough situations where an existing dual-load conventional switch needs to be automated to justify adding these devices to the catalog for all of the new lighting technologies.

5- Realistic Ceiling Fan Modules. There is actually quite a bit of space available under the cover of a ceiling fan but the central shaft requires anything under there to be either quite small or sharply curved. The so called in-line modules currently offered do not really fit that easily into many ceiling fan situations and are not very practical in their current form. Folks are ready for some modules shaped specifically for ceiling fan installations, preferably a dual device to independently control the light and fan.

I strongly agree with the above needs.

On point 1 - We would even be happy if we could walk around with a laptop and remove the trim and faceplate to do the update.

On point 2 - Scew-in is a big need for UPB. I have customers with closets they want to automate and do not have a switch. They are controlled by pull chain. Many times there is NO room to install a inline module in the box above the bulb so I have to use X10 and convert UPB to X10.

On point 4 - There are currently many locations in a house where a single gang box holds a switch which controls two seperate loads. Currently we have to remove the single gang box and install a double gang to replace the switch with a controllable one. In my own house I had a double gang box next to the front door that controlled four loads with two switches. I had to rip a hole in the wall because of studs to replace the double gang box with a quad.

On point 5 - I have been asking for years for a simple switch with 4 buttons to provide Off, Low, Med, and High for Fan Control.

 

[MikeB]

To make much use of a dual switch, in most cases, wouldn't you need to cut in a new box and run the wiring for it? If you're trying to find a spot for a multi-button controller, there are combination faceplates available for UPB switches that allow for a load control plus control buttons. What am I missing?

Some existing locations might have 2 switches in 1 gang. I had 2 toggle switches in 1 unit (not sure the technical name for this) for my flood and deck lights. I had to cut a hole in my drywall, yank the existing box, and install a new one to automate those lights.

 

[upstatemike]

Upstatemike:

Wonderful input! I know that at one time or another, all of these ideas have been discussed by the various manufacturers. There have been a couple of attempts at some of the ideas above, but nothing finalized. PCS was showing a wireless interface at EHX based upon the Enocean energy harvesting technology. SAI was working on a dual load switch at one time, but I'm not sure where that is. Web Mountain is working on some remote access applications.

Let me ask a question. I've been wondering about the application for a dual load switch in a retrofit situation. I can see this in new construction, but it would seem the applications in retrofits would be limited. There's already a spot for each switch and the wiring is there for existing switches. To make much use of a dual switch, in most cases, wouldn't you need to cut in a new box and run the wiring for it? If you're trying to find a spot for a multi-button controller, there are combination faceplates available for UPB switches that allow for a load control plus control buttons. What am I missing?

Thanks.

In Retrofit situations you are not always replacing plain toggle switches. Leviton makes a lot of custom switches that fit into a single gang box. Some use an outlet faceplate with a small sideways switch located where each plug would be. Others use a Decora form factor but again have two small sideways switches instead of a single Decora paddle. There was a period of time when builders were fond of using these next to outside doors to control both the interior light and a porch light. (I'm not sure why unless the porch light was an afterthought?)

I have also seen situations where a ceiling fan is wired with separate wires for the light and fan but the switch is a single gang proprietary control. A dual UPB switch could take advantage of the individual wires within the existing single gang box.

Sometimes you have a bunch of wall sconces that are controlled by a single switch and you discover there are actually two feeds tied together at the switch and you decide you would like to control the two lines independently. If it is an old metal box buried in a plaster and lathe wall and the lines are in conduit, then changing the box is not really an option.

I am sure others can give additional examples for dual switch applications.

 

[webmtn]

Ok, I understand. I have seen very few of these dual switches, but they must be more prevalent than I thought.

 

[upstatemike]

Ok, I understand. I have seen very few of these dual switches, but they must be more prevalent than I thought.

I don't know how common these situations are. I added dual switches to the list because I have seen it mentioned several times by others. Some additional input from folks who are waiting for this option would be helpful here.

Personally I am far more interested in support for field upgradable firmware!

 

[toymaster458]

Personally I am far more interested in support for field upgradable firmware!

That and Fan control are the TOP two on my list. For example I just bought a bunch of switches for my house a few months before SAI release the Timer version and if I knew I would have held off. Now the only way I can get it is if I remove my old switches, sell them off as used and install the timers. Too much of a pain along with a loss of time and money.

 

[Event5]

Personally I am far more interested in support for field upgradable firmware!

That and Fan control are the TOP two on my list. For example I just bought a bunch of switches for my house a few months before SAI release the Timer version and if I knew I would have held off. Now the only way I can get it is if I remove my old switches, sell them off as used and install the timers. Too much of a pain along with a loss of time and money.

Kirk,

If you want to have a count down feature on those existing switches you can use the Tim-01 From Web mountain If the switch can send a link as well as turn on the load it can trigger a timer in the Tim-01 that will turn off the light. Better than replacing all of the switches.

Dave

 

[toymaster458]

Personally I am far more interested in support for field upgradable firmware!

That and Fan control are the TOP two on my list. For example I just bought a bunch of switches for my house a few months before SAI release the Timer version and if I knew I would have held off. Now the only way I can get it is if I remove my old switches, sell them off as used and install the timers. Too much of a pain along with a loss of time and money.

Kirk,

If you want to have a count down feature on those existing switches you can use the Tim-01 From Web mountain If the switch can send a link as well as turn on the load it can trigger a timer in the Tim-01 that will turn off the light. Better than replacing all of the switches.

Dave

I am replicating the Timer with CQC now, The point was it is better as an integrated feature and would be nicer to do a firmware upgrade.

 

[CalypsoCowboy]

AnthonyZ, where you able to find out anything on the noise you were getting? Did you get a generation 2 PIM and did that help?