Legrand Discontinues the ALC and PLC Lighting Systems!

[beelzerob]

Hope this helps,
-Bill

Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!!

That's exactly what I needed.

I was promised a copy of the Scenetech software by ALC, oh, some 9 or so months ago, to help me in my integration with CQC...but it never got sent, and I had no replies from OnQ ever since. (I'm QUITE glad to know ALC will now be in the hands of someone who is responsive.) I wasn't going to buy a copy of the software, only to find them finally send me the copy promised...so I've just gone without. Really, I've not needed it up until this one issue...which I shall verify tonight resolves all my question! Thanks bill!

 

[TonyStewart]

For those of you who have been active in this forum or any of the previous ones, We will price protect you. Call me or Anthony and provide your user name and we will help you as best we can. Can't promise this to everyone and the amount we can help out does have some restrictions, but if you have made an entry on Coccontech, we will help you out. That means all of you, even those who have not been a fan of us or ALC.

If you already have good supplier like automated outlet, then I will pass along the savings to them. This will take a little more administration, but we don't want to take any business away from another supplier.

Merry Christmas from the Stewarts

Tony,

I've been a longtime fan, user, and (small scale) installer of ALC. It saved me from the never ending misery of X-10 PLC, and replaced it with a technology that "just worked" at a reasonable price point. I also had very positive experiences interacting with Dale Rupert and Gary Axe years ago in debugging a few SLC firmware issues that really sold me on the professionalism and support behind the product line. Reading Legrand's 'abandoning ALC' message left me with a knot in my stomach. Your postings here have been encouraging and I look forward to seeing the advancements that you and Genesis 1:3 bring to ALC.

I also appreciate your 'price protection' offer. I've historically bought my ALC gear from Worthington Distribution. I'd love to see them added your 'good supplier' list.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas,
-Bill

I appreciate your comments.

Rich Scholl (owner of Worthington) called me this week and we have added them to the list. They have been ALC supporters for many years anyway. Rich and I go way back in our industry and will be once again working closely together on ALC and some other product development.

God Bless
TS

 

[TonyStewart]

I was promised a copy of the Scenetech software by ALC, oh, some 9 or so months ago, to help me in my integration with CQC...but it never got sent, and I had no replies from OnQ ever since. (I'm QUITE glad to know ALC will now be in the hands of someone who is responsive.) I wasn't going to buy a copy of the software, only to find them finally send me the copy promised...so I've just gone without. Really, I've not needed it up until this one issue...which I shall verify tonight resolves all my question! Thanks bill!
[/quote]

Excellent. Also note that "Ramp" is also another term for Extended. A good example of this ALC feature is its ability to take hours to slowly brighten (or dim). I use this often. Here is an example. Tell your system to start the ramp (from off) 45 minutes before sunset and take 45 minutes to come to full bright. This way, the dimmer increases in brightness in proportion to the sun setting. It's a great technique.

I am not aware of any other lighting system that can do this feature.

TS

 

[merts]

Excellent. Also note that "Ramp" is also another term for Extended. A good example of this ALC feature is its ability to take hours to slowly brighten (or dim). I use this often. Here is an example. Tell your system to start the ramp (from off) 45 minutes before sunset and take 45 minutes to come to full bright. This way, the dimmer increases in brightness in proportion to the sun setting. It's a great technique.

I am not aware of any other lighting system that can do this feature.

TS
[/quote]


I do this with UPB all the time. I was a big installer of ALC until i did my first UPB job. My question is if ALC is the thing, then why did Legrand get rid of it. Why did HAI and others go with UPB for their own lighting control. I have UPB in a couple 18000 square foot homes and works great. i can take a PCS switch and program it when the top rocker is pressed once, to turn on one light and double tap to turn on another. You can't do this with ALC unless you have a contoller in the picture.

 

[devsd2]

I just finished wiring my new construction home with cat5 to each switch because I had planned on using ALC sometime in the future, so I was shocked to read the first post in this thread. I really do wish you great success with the product. I hate to buy the switches and not be able to service them or replace them later on.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Tony and Family,

Best of luck to you.

I have about a dozen ALC switches installed and another half dozen NIB.

My main beef with ALC which has had me questioning my choice is similar to others:
- Scene switches are terrible. Maybe they were ok 10 years ago, but they cannot compete with other suppliers look and feel at the moment.
- Outlet module. I understand a plugin lamp module can be a bit tricky since you need to bring the HV and LC from wall to the module. But an outlet module which you could have a lamp plugged in would be great. I understand there is some code issues with dimming outlets perhaps, for me a relay based outlet module would already be a big improvement.

Other pet peeves (which may or may not be solvable due to code issues and such):
- Having to put all the LV wires together and stuff them in the gangbox. Anyway to make it a RJ45 connector 'on top' of the switches so you can still run the cat5 outside the box pretty much. Maybe this is physically not practical.. but a plugin LV wiring would be grand and significantly cut down on errors i would think. One issue to keep in mind is that the polling loop wires may be used by multiple switches.
- Alternatively to the RJ45 solution can we get terminals on the switches for the LV? This way you could put a insulated sheath over the Cat5 and then terminate it on thw switch. If you put this under a plastic cover (which already seems to be there) maybe this can be made code compliant and still be compatible with your preferred method of keeping the LV on top and out of the gangbox.
- Documentation. Like others have said. It's a pain to figure out which pieces you need and how it all works together. Perhaps this is coz it isnt really a DYI product. I have to admit maybe it's a issue that us DYI HA geeks have where we plan everything out. Once i got my hands on the gear it all became a LOT clearer. Mainly for new construction home people to figure out how many conductors are needed seems to be tricky. Now that i've done it for my own home it's easy to explain to others. But some descent graphics (from this decade :horse: ) would be usefull.
- The way to have to teach scenes in the scene switches is really akward, especially if you're adding switches to your install and have to redo all your scenes. In reality I believe the scenetech software (which i havent used myself) fixes this issue. I somewhat feel this software should be available freely.
- I have some issues with the ALC<>ELK interface which i've posted about before but have gotten no real response from ELK.
- Delay between commands. If you turn it off commands are missed. If you turn it on the delay is signficant (about 1s) and annoying.
- ELK RP doesnt let you set the dimmer level to 0, you have to turn the dimmer OFF. This transition from level xx% to 0%% is smooth, the transition to OFF is crude. The odd this is that when you use CQC to set the dimmer level for the ELK which then controls the ALC interface you can set it to 0%, so this mainly seems to be an ELK RP GUI issue. Should be easy to resolve.

Although this all sounds a bit negative i've had ALC in my home for 1 year now. Due to time restrictions i havent made too many fancy scenes and such, but so far the system hasnt missed a beat. Depending on the price and developement of new modules I may stay with ALC (also because i've already sunk a good bit of $$$ into it).

Maybe we as DYI'er think ourselves too important of a market, but i don't think you'll find a bunch of guys more willing to take a chance on a product, test beta software, give you feedback on documentation, etc.

Classy and good political move on the price protection.

Best of luck to you and your family.

Felix

 

[Jimmyjam]

- Alternatively to the RJ45 solution can we get terminals on the switches for the LV? This way you could put a insulated sheath over the Cat5 and then terminate it on thw switch. If you put this under a plastic cover (which already seems to be there) maybe this can be made code compliant and still be compatible with your preferred method of keeping the LV on top and out of the gangbox.

I have some older ALC switches that have a screw down terminals and a plastic cover, so they were made this way at one time.

 

[Satsu]

Glad to know there is a future of the ALC systems. I picked up the ELK interface and a few switches from SETNET earlier this year. I'm in the process of actually installing them now. I'm really glad to know I can still continue with it. Also happy about the price match :horse:

 

[roussell]

We too are looking at building a house next year and I was going to go hardwired with ALC. Nice to hear about the price match, thanks Tony.

Terry

 

[yoda]

SETNET (Genesis13) is the new owner of ALC lighting. It seems to be a deal that has been in the works for a while. Now you know why the constant ALC sales pitch from number20 (SETNET). I will never use another ALC item in any installation. It really stinks when a small distributor of automation products becomes the sole producer of a product line. There is a huge conflict of interest here, that is why Tony took the Genesis13 name. He should have really at least used a different address for the two companies. There are no professionals who will use ALC anymore although it is a great product. I doubt SETNET ALC can exist on DIYs alone. It is a shame. So long ALC old friend I've enjoyed working with you. I guess hello Crestron lighting, Lutron HWI or Centralite. There is certainly a huge gap to fill there.

It really isn't OnQs fault. ALC sales have been dwindling ever since HAI stopped promoting it. ALC is largely a DIY product. There are very few professionals who use it. I use it with a Crestron front end as an inexpensive hard wired lighting system. I really am sorry to see it go, but I will not deal with SETNET, no how no way. This is not a knock against SETNET. They might be a great company, just not for an integrator who makes his living on this product line.

So what other system would you recommend for those of us who already have all their CAT5 wiring in place? As I understand it crestrons lighting system needs proprietary wiring in order to function. What other lighting systems can utilize CAT5?

You can use crestron lighting with cat 5 to talk to the system controller but they do not have a switch that will support the aux switches if the install didn't pull high voltage between the master and aux switches

 

[TonyStewart]

Tony and Family,

Best of luck to you.

I have about a dozen ALC switches installed and another half dozen NIB. [/quote]

Thanks Felix

There is a screw terminal behind a plate on every switch. This feature assures that UL will be happy. Although you can mix the high and low connections inside the same box (article 725) I suggest making them on top of the box.

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

My main beef with ALC which has had me questioning my choice is similar to others:................

First let me comment about the ramp feature discussed in an earlier post. Ramp with UPB is over a much shorter time period and is not really linear. Instead of a slow ramp, speed it up and you will notice "jumps" not present with ALC.

If you have not had some issues with UPB's dependability, then God Bless you! I hope you never do. It is a good technology and is dependable in the high 90+ % of the time. ALL brands are licensed through PCS who is the original creator (kind of like us and our new relationship with OnQ). UPB is my pick of lighting in existing homes. We have thoroughly tested most technologies in our lab and UPB won out over all other "no new wires" technologies.

Read all the posts for answers as to why OnQ passed the ball to us. In summary it was political to support another company Legrand owns called "Top Dog" (not the name OnQ is using). Their new system will be RF controlled. I will let you know how it tests out.

Scene switches are available from countless other manufacturers. Any scene switch that can communicate serially can be used and some that are Ethernet based as well (as long as your control system supports Ethernet).

Send me a drawing of your idea of a perfect scene switch and we will consider it.

Also note that the “techies†viewpoint of what a device should look like rarely equals what the homeowner wants anyway. So, no design is universal.

As for the RJ45 connector, it is simply too big. Getting it and all the other stuff into a single gang box is simply hard. Why are you putting the low voltage connections inside the box anyway? Volume installers of ALC rarely make the connection inside the box. Instead they take a razor knife and cut a small amount of the dry wall away from the top of the box, reach in with a hook and pull out the cat5 and put beanie connectors on the wires. If you make the connections on top of the box, then troubleshooting is as easy as removing the faceplate, reaching it and pulling the connections out and putting your voltmeter on the beanies. NO NEED TO REMOVE THE SWITCH FROM THE BOX!

And better yet, the local inspectors can’t fuss over this as the high and low connections are not inside the same box (although this does now pass code).

As for terminals, they already exist. Simply remove the cover from the back of any ALC switch and there are the terminals. However, I still like the method mentioned previously! Shrink tubing sheathes ship with each switch as well.

As for the documentation, I myself hate to read the instructions. But for those of you that do. Each device ships with instructions and ALL documents for every product is located on our website (been there for many months). Better yet, a detailed training and documentation program is among our first objectives.

As for awkward scene learning, I don’t understand your concern. To place a scene switch in learn mode hold one of the 4 buttons in for 15 seconds until the LED starts flashing. Walk around and set all ALC switches to the level you want them for that scene and press the button again. No controller programming is needed with this method. Is that how you were doing it?

Not sure why Elk has not answered your questions, this is pretty rare. We are finishing a elk lab and will beat on it ourselves in the first quarter of 2010. I will advice what I learn.

As for the DIY’ers, most of you are equal to or superior to many integrators we have trained. I respect your drive and your comments. Keep it coming.

As for the outlet of lamp module, the outlet is posisble, but the lamp module would need an external connection for the ALC polling loop making it awkward at best. We will explore the outlet idea as sales move forward.



God Bless
TS

 

[TonyStewart]

I just finished wiring my new construction home with cat5 to each switch because I had planned on using ALC sometime in the future, so I was shocked to read the first post in this thread. I really do wish you great success with the product. I hate to buy the switches and not be able to service them or replace them later on.

While OnQ had the line there was danger that no longer exists.

TS

 

[MBrew]

I wish you a great deal of luck with the product line. After reading your very excellent writeup, I'm certain that this product is in the right hands and you answered the questions that I've had as to why this product hadn't received more extensive development and marketing support.

I'm a real fan of your business model. No debt is really kind of hard to beat, but I really appreciate your attitude towards the DIY market as well. There are a lot of reasons that I think we are good for the marketplace and you've hit on a few of them.


Best wishes,
Mike Brewster

 

[TonyStewart]

I wish you a great deal of luck with the product line. After reading your very excellent writeup, I'm certain that this product is in the right hands and you answered the questions that I've had as to why this product hadn't received more extensive development and marketing support.

I'm a real fan of your business model. No debt is really kind of hard to beat, but I really appreciate your attitude towards the DIY market as well. There are a lot of reasons that I think we are good for the marketplace and you've hit on a few of them.


Best wishes,
Mike Brewster

Many products we have been involved with started with one of my family members wanting to "install the first one in their own home". I can tell you more about products that don't work than I can about the ones that do. The old school of "burn and learn" has seen the Stewart family in attendance many times. You should see our dinosaur graveyard!

As for our business model, I appreciate the kind words. We have decided to pay cash for every order we place to build more products. As such, we are spending a lot of time praying over the day to day business operation. While our model is a safe one, it costs us a lot of time to make each move correctly. The mess many businesses are in today comes from the fact that we can finance a lot more than we could ever pay back. My wife is the real wise owl. She fiercly protects our resources.

The very first true complete Smart house was a brand called Smarthouse. Over $160 Million of capital went into the roll out of that system. A variety of major manufacturers created the subsystems. Names like AMP (Tyco), Molex, AT&T, Bose, Marathon, PCS, Lenox, Xantech, and many others threw money at the dream between the years of 1989 and 1996. Eventually all threw in the towel as less than $2 million of product was ever sold.

The moral of that story is this...... If major players like those I mentioned can throw over $160 Million at a product and then walk away during the fatter years, smaller companies can easily abandon their products (or worse yet go bankrupt) during the lean years.

We at SETNET learned a lot during those years. Maybe the biggest lesson was to sell products that are not proprietarily wired, products that can be removed and replaced with standard technology or standard lighting. In 1996, as a consultant to AMP (who spent over $100 million themselves) my advice was to change the next Smarthouse type product line to the wiring strategy that ALC now uses. And of course we learned to sell products that work 100% of the time, thus we use wired solutions when at all possible.

We are biased in this regard and eagerly support this approach for installers and DIY'ers. While I wish all lighting manufactures well, some of the bigger names certainly offer good products, but it's a risky business case for an installer and an even more risky investment for the end users.

Today, SETNET still travels all over the United States and Canada removing Smarthouse wiring systems (from several manufacturers) and replacing them with ALC. Most of these customers can convince the proponents of proprietary systems to think otherwise.

Our advice for products center around safety, a proven track record and limited risk. Kind of like our business model today.

God Bless
TS