M1 won't quite seize phone line

rothschildp

New Member
I installed my M1G a month or two ago and I noticed that it will not exactly seize the phone line. If I call my home from my cell and I am in a "conversation" then set off an alarm the panel will NOT hang up the call and call the alarm company. It will patiently wait until I end the conversation, then call out. If I hang up the home phone but not the cell, the panel will send the modem tones to the cell. My last alarm would force the home phone to go on hook for a settable amount of time to make sure that the call was truly hung up, then place the CS call. That prevents someone from calling your home phone right before setting off an alarm. It also makes sure that if anyone is at home and on the phone, that their call is disconnected so the CS can be notified.

I checked to make sure that the phone line is wired correctly, with the telco line and house phones not switched. I am using plain old telephone service, not VOIP or Internet. The panel responds correctly to phone control commands from inside and outside. The line-seize LED and dialer LED do not come on while the panel is waiting for the house phone to be hung up, and do come on after the "human" call ends and the CS call starts. The only other oddity I noticed is that I am not sure that I get a notification of a phone failure (but maybe I didn't pull the phone line out for long enough, only a minute or so) and that I have the CS programmed as telephone #2 (nothing is programmed as #1, I used that for testing then deleted #1). Putting a "D" in the phone number doesn't make a difference, since I am not trying to make it wait for a dialtone, I am trying to make it hang up for a few seconds so that it gets one.

Any ideas on what could be causing this? I don't see how it could be my rules programming, since this seems like part of the hardware. My M1G panel is too polite to seize the line, and waits quietly for the ongoing call to end! :(
 
Ok, stupid question. You did not mention the RJ31x. Do you have one in the line or does your telco line just go straight to the M1?
 
No, I did not use the RJ31. The telco line goes straight the M1 terminals, the out of the M1 to the house. Actually, due to the age of the house and how it was wired, the M1 sits between the telco and the downstairs phones only, the upstairs phones also go to the telco entrance point so the M1 can't disconnect them. All my testing and experimenting was done with the downstairs phones only, since the upstairs ones "don't count". The M1 is wired in the same way as my older panel, and it was able to seize the line OK, but something is bothering the M1. I don't think the upstairs phones on the telco side of the line should bother the M1, and I don't think that the M1 should be able to notice that there is no RJ31, do you? The panel does know when the phone line is hung up, so it is getting that much right. It just won't hang up the line if it is already in use. Any ideas?
 
Well, I am no expert at all panels, but with Elk and HAI and stuff I am familiar with you do need the RJ31x. I would install that per the wiring diagram in the manual and it should solve the problem.

The RJ31x interface provides an in and an out to your alarm so that if your alarm is tripped the telephone line is removed from the rest of you house (so as not to interrupt the callout to your monitoring ssrvice). It also provides a pass thru function such that if you unplug you alarm system from the RJ31x the line will route back to your telephones via a loop back connection (this is done via the alarm system when plugged in).
 
basically from my understanding of the rj131 is it allows the alarm to force a 'hang up' on the line so it can get a dial tone and dial out, not having one on your system basically allows someone to defeat your alarm system by picking up a phone and leaving it off the hook (which is what's happening when you have the phone off the hook), the alarm can't hang up the phone forcefully, so it has to wait until it is hung up until it can dial out. The way my system is connected even if i'm talking on the phone, the elk will sieze the line and hang it up pick up the line again and dial out. The rj31 has to be installed before any phones / answering machines / etc, or those devices will prevent it from being able to sieze the line. You will still able to use the dial - in to the elk, because you have to physically hang up the phone and pick it up again to activate it, it doesn't involve the rj131 jack... anyway, lucky you caught it and are able to correct it as a precautionary measure.

as for your previous alarm, maybe it had a rj131 jack built into the board allowing the line to be connected directly to it.. elk and hai per my understanding rely on the rj131 jack.
 
I am pretty sure that the path the phone line takes into the panel will not affect whether it is able to seize the line. Routing it through a RJ31 won't help, and adding a few more junctions to the phone wire adds places to introduce static or bad connections on the phone line. The phone line is currently routed into the M1G and back out, using the exact same path that the line would take if an RJ31 was used. The panel is NOT connected like it is just another phone. It is not the RJ31 that allows the panel to seize the line, it is the route that the phone line takes, where it goes into the panel FIRST then out to the rest of the house, so that it can cut off the house phones. The RJ31 is an easy way to route the wires like that, but I have routed them that way anyway. Once the panel decides to seize the line, it is able to do so and it does disconnect the house from the telco. It just won't seize a line that is in use, and the RJ31 won't change that.

The RJ31 doesn't help the panel seize the line, but it does allow you to unplug the panel from the jack and leave the the house phones usable. It is sort of like an earphone jack on an old radio, where you plug in an earphone and the speakers are disconnected, then remove the earphone plug and the speaker is reconnected. When you insert the male plug into the RJ31, the house phones are disconnected from the telco and routed through the panel. If you unplug the jack then the house phones are reconnected directly to the telco. In my case, if I want to remove the M1G from the phone line, then I have to manually jumper the incoming and outgoing lines, there is no RJ31 to provide that jumper automatically.

The prior alarm did not have built-in RJ31. The problem here is not the RJ31 jack (or lack of one). It is something in the M1G's programming or software or hardware that is keeping it from trying to seize the line when an alarm is triggered. It can seize it for telephone control from an inside or outside line, and it can seize the line once there is no call in progress. Its ability to seize the line is working fine, but it isn't trying to seize it.
 
I am pretty sure that the path the phone line takes into the panel will not affect whether it is able to seize the line......
Peter is correct. With the correct wiring, the M1 should be able to sieze the line without an RJ block. The RJ block is only a place to "plug" in or "unplug" the alarm system. There are 3 scenerios possible.

1. When using an RJ block, and the alarm system plugged into it, the alarm panel can either seize the line, or bypass the line to leave the house phones connected to the phone source.

2. When using and RJ block, and the alarm system unplugged, the RJ block does the bypass and keeps the house phones connected to the phone source.

3. When direct wiring the phone source and house phones to the alarm panel without an RJ block, the alarm panel still has the ability to either seize the line or bypass the line, just like in case 1 above. The only disadvantage to this case is that you cannot "unplug" the alarm system.

Other than this explanation of the operation of an RJ31X block, I have no clue as to what is causing the problem, but I do agree it has to be in the M1. I don't know of any settings to make the M1 wait for the phone line to be on-hook before attempting to dial.
 
Well, 'technically' you are right and don't need the 31X even tho that's how they are recommended. In reality the panel just uses a relay to seize the line. Tip (T) and Ring ® come from telco demarc/NID (network interface device) and then T1 and R1 go to the house phones. When the panel goes to seize, it essentially just disconnects or shuts off R1 and T1 which takes your house phones off the system and the panel then has direct access and control to T and R to dial out. I still recommend an RJ31x even though it is not absolutely required, if nothing else it makes it easy to take your panel out of the system for testing, repair or whatever.

If your telco seized light comes on, then it has disconnected T1 and R1 and the M1 should have control. If it does not then either something is miswired or the M1 is defective. When the seized light comes on, do you hear the relay switch? It will be a very detectable sound. It almost sounds (assuming all is wired right) that the relay is not kicking and disconnecting T1 and R1 and those have to be disconnected to give complete control to dial out.

Also, you may have other issues the way you described it. Your panel has to be the absolute first and only device to the NID. You said the upstarirs phones also go directly to the NID. Well, if the upstairs phones and downstarirs phones are just tied together at the NID on the same pair then the upstairs phone WILL have the ability to block the M1. If a phone upstairs is off hook, it will open your phone circuit and will block the M1.

What wire do you have between the NID and M1 - a single pair or 2 pair? If you only have one phone line and you have a 2 pair/4 conductor wire, I would suggest wiring like this:

Disconnect upstairs phone at the NID. Bring telco to panel location. I would install RJ31x at that point, but assuming not - take 1 pair from the telco (say Green/Red) and connect to Tip/Ring on the M1. Then connect the downstairs house phones AND the second pair from the NID (say Yellow/Black) to T1 and R1. Then back at the NID connect the upstairs phones to the Yellow/Black pair. In this way both the upstairs phones and downstairs phones will be on the T1/R1 side of the panel and can be seized.
 
No, I did not use the RJ31. The telco line goes straight the M1 terminals, the out of the M1 to the house. Actually, due to the age of the house and how it was wired, the M1 sits between the telco and the downstairs phones only, the upstairs phones also go to the telco entrance point so the M1 can't disconnect them. All my testing and experimenting was done with the downstairs phones only, since the upstairs ones "don't count". The M1 is wired in the same way as my older panel, and it was able to seize the line OK, but something is bothering the M1. I don't think the upstairs phones on the telco side of the line should bother the M1, and I don't think that the M1 should be able to notice that there is no RJ31, do you? The panel does know when the phone line is hung up, so it is getting that much right. It just won't hang up the line if it is already in use. Any ideas?

(Emphasis above is mine). There's your problem. All the phones in the house have to be "downstream" from the alarm panel. Steve's suggestion would seem to be the best one.
 
Actually, due to the age of the house and how it was wired, the M1 sits between the telco and the downstairs phones only, the upstairs phones also go to the telco entrance point so the M1 can't disconnect them.

(Emphasis above is mine). There's your problem. All the phones in the house have to be "downstream" from the alarm panel. Steve's suggestion would seem to be the best one.

He also said

All my testing and experimenting was done with the downstairs phones only, since the upstairs ones "don't count".

Which should work as expected, as long as someone does not pick up one of the upstairs house phones.
 
In answer some of these questions:
- Yes, I can hear the relay when the dialer does seize the line. And the LED comes on at the same time. And it does disconnect the house from the telco. It just won't do this if there is call active on the phone line, that is, if someone is talking on the phone.
- It would be darn near impossible to put the M1 right between the NID and the upstairs phones. The NID is outside a 2nd floor window, where the wire comes in from the pole. From there, a string of phones comes off the NID for the upstairs, and a 1-pair line goes down an interior wall to the basement where the M1 is located, then to the downstairs phones. I am willing to live with having the M1 unable to disconnect and seize the upstairs phones, but it won't try to seize the downstairs phones even though it is between the NID and those phones.
- Yes, I waited out the dialer delay. I waited a full 5 minutes, and I know because I checked the call timer on the cell phone I called as a test.

I am really, really sure that this is not an RJ31 problem. When the panel does seize the line, it does it just fine. The LED comes on, the relay clicks, the downstairs house phones are disconnected, and the dialer dials. It just won't do it if someone is talking on the phone.

I have another test I want to try. I had been testing by violating a 24-hour water flow zone (type 25), since that is set up as for silent because that won't disturb the neighbors when I test. Maybe the M1 considers that water flow is not important enough to interrupt a call by seizing the line. Tonight I will try violating a fire or burglar zone.

Any other ideas on why the M1 won't try to seize the line?
 
Somewhat off topic but if you went to wireless phones with the base station in the basement where IT could be disconnected then you wouldn't have any problems when someone is on any of the phones.

Still need to get the M1 to grab the line but I think you may be on the right track with that problem.
 
PARTLY SOLVED. It seems that it does matter what type of zone is violated. If a regular fire/burglar zone is violated then the panel won't wait, it will seize the phone line immediately. If the water flow is violated then the panel won't interrupt a call but will wait for the line to become free before calling the CS. Of course, I only thought to try this after posting. I guess that this is an undocumented feature.

Thanks to everyone for your advice and help, those were some good ideas.

BUT...the M1 doesn't hang up for long enough when seizing the line. By watching the LED and listening to the relay, I can see that it only hangs up for about 2-3 seconds. That is, it forces the phone to go on-hook by disconnecting the house phones for 2-3 seconds. This is not always enough to end a call in progress. Incoming calls generally won't disconnect until the line goes on-hook for about 10-15 seconds. This could cause the M1 to fail to notify the CS.

Try this: Call INTO your home from somewhere else, like your cell phone. Don't call out, it has to be an incoming call. After answering, hang up the HOME phone for about 5 seconds, then pick up the phone again. You will still be connected. Try hanging up the home phone for 10 seconds, you will probably still be connected. This has been a design feature of the phone system for a million years. It originally let the called party hang up, run to another phone and pick that one up.

Now call into your house and trigger an alarm. Do not hang up your cell phone. The M1 will probably seize the line and hang up the home phones for 2-3 seconds then go off hook and dial the CS. But the prior call will still be connected to your cell phone. When the M1 dials, it will put the modem tones out to your cell phone and won't reach the CS. After a minute or so, when it doesn't get an acknowledgment from the CS it will hang up for 2-3 seconds and dial again. And again it will be connected to the cell phone, not the CS. As long as you don't hang up the cell phone, the panel won't reach the monitoring company. This means that someone could prevent the M1 from reaching the CS by calling the house at just before violating a zone. My prior alarm had a settable timer for the hang-up time, and they recommended 15 seconds. Does the M1 have a similar timer or setting? Does anyone else using POTS service not have this problem of the on-hook time being too short to end an incoming call?
 
Try this: Call INTO your home from somewhere else, like your cell phone. Don't call out, it has to be an incoming call. After answering, hang up the HOME phone for about 5 seconds, then pick up the phone again. You will still be connected. Try hanging up the home phone for 10 seconds, you will probably still be connected. This has been a design feature of the phone system for a million years. It originally let the called party hang up, run to another phone and pick that one up.

Now call into your house and trigger an alarm. Do not hang up your cell phone. The M1 will probably seize the line and hang up the home phones for 2-3 seconds then go off hook and dial the CS. But the prior call will still be connected to your cell phone. When the M1 dials, it will put the modem tones out to your cell phone and won't reach the CS. After a minute or so, when it doesn't get an acknowledgment from the CS it will hang up for 2-3 seconds and dial again. And again it will be connected to the cell phone, not the CS. As long as you don't hang up the cell phone, the panel won't reach the monitoring company. This means that someone could prevent the M1 from reaching the CS by calling the house at just before violating a zone. My prior alarm had a settable timer for the hang-up time, and they recommended 15 seconds. Does the M1 have a similar timer or setting? Does anyone else using POTS service not have this problem of the on-hook time being too short to end an incoming call?

I've just finsihed most of my M1G install, do not yet have monitoring but was planning on Nextalarm. Your experience makes me feel even more likely to add cell monitoring (?Uplink and the ilk?). And prob use as the primary means of notification.
 
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