More Insteon products?

[RWlodarczyk]

I'm a newbie to home automation and have pretty much made up my mind to go with all Insteon based products (anyone care to try to talk me into UPB or Z-Wave? I haven't ordered anything yet, so I'm still impressionable. ).

The Insteon site doesn't seem like it has been updated for some time and it doesn't seem to list any upcoming products. Some things that I think are missing:
- Insteon Powerflash type modules (similar to the X10 ones)
- Cooper Wire like Insteon based receptacle (see http://www.cooperwiringdevices.com/aspireRF... apparently they exist for Z-Wave)
- any wireless controllers or devices for Insteon
- does anyone have a side-by-side photo of Insteon vs. Z-Wave vs. UPB vs standard dimmers? I'm curious to see the depth of each.

Has anyone heard of any developments on these fronts?

 

[Steve]

I'm a newbie to home automation and have pretty much made up my mind to go with all Insteon based products (anyone care to try to talk me into UPB or Z-Wave? I haven't ordered anything yet, so I'm still impressionable. ).

I would never try to talk someone out of a decision but I would be curious as to why you chose Insteon?

 

[RWlodarczyk]

I'm a newbie to home automation and have pretty much made up my mind to go with all Insteon based products (anyone care to try to talk me into UPB or Z-Wave? I haven't ordered anything yet, so I'm still impressionable. ).

I would never try to talk someone out of a decision but I would be curious as to why you chose Insteon?

I read quite a bit about both Z-Wave and Insteon. Some things that I found:
- there are people on both side that have had problems with large setups, setups in cities due to interference, setups in older homes
- there are zealots pronouncing that one technology is "the best" or "better than the rest"
- everyone agrees that X10 has serious limitations and is unreliable
- marketing material from any camp is all hog-wash. their "competetive analysis" just promotes their own product.
- given software like HomeSeer, there's really no need to "lock into" a particular technology since HomeSeer seems to make the communication between technologies pretty transparent.
- (as to the previous comment...) though there's no need to "lock into" a particular technology, it seems that it's still better to have as homogeneous of a home automation network as possible.

Things I liked about Insteon:
- price point (as compared to UPB and even in some cases Z-Wave)
- vast number of people using it
- vast support in home automation software

Things I dis-liked about Insteon:
- it's a one company deal... if Smarthome goes away, Insteon dies
- lack of updates on upcoming devices

Things I dis-liked about Z-Wave:
- based on the forums I read and people I spoke to, not many people are using it... far more people are using Insteon
- though more than one company supports Z-Wave, many of the companies producing products don't have complete lines of products. And if they do (like in the case of Cooper Wire), they are not yet available.
- it's entirely wireless... not sure about you, but Y.A.W.S. (yet another wireless solution) scares me a bit.
Concerns:
- is there built in security? can someone walking by my house "see" my z-wave network and control it?
- what about interference with cordless phones, WiFi?
- intermingling of networks with neighbors

Things I dis-liked about UPB:
- price
- complaints about fitting multiple dimmers into a multi-outlet gang box

 

[ChrisWalker]

RWlodarczyk,

I would personally recommend looking into the (interoperable) industry standard for wireless home control (Z-Wave) first, since that will give you the most future-proofing and give you the largest variety of products...

Chris

 

[roussell]

Hmm, I've been in the same boat for a while. I have X10 and wish to replace it with something else. I've tried the Zwave and Insteon starter kits and just got in some UPB stuff to play with. I love the look and "promise" and price of Insteon, but the QC problems scare the crap out of me. My wife isn't very open to technology running her life and even less so if it's buggy - in short I have one chance to get it right.

I'm leaning toward UPB even though it's higher just because is "seems" to be more reliable than the other two - please no flames - I know there are those in all camps that are having great success with each product. Personally, I don't like the UPB keypads - they're ugly - but they seem to be built well. OTOH, the Insteon keypads look great but their build-quality makes me think I won them at a circus - buttons flying off if you don't touch them correctly??? - Come on, give me a break.

I have big hope for Insteon, but I just don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about its future. I have serious questions about each product so I've decided to wait a little longer and see what shakes out. My X10 setup isn't TOO buggy and at least is is an evil that I know.

Unless your list of Pro/Cons are heavily weighted toward price, then it would seem as though UPB is the choice for you rather than Insteon.

Terry

 

[Steve]

I am not going to try to change your mind or anything, just rather give you some facts.

Things I liked about Insteon:
- price point (as compared to UPB and even in some cases Z-Wave)
- vast number of people using it
- vast support in home automation software

Don't know where you got your information from, but I would be willing to bet you UPB has many more nodes installed than Insteon. Insteon is more popular in DIY circles but UPB definitely is more popular with pros. I think you would also find that UPB has equal if not better and more robust support in your favorite HA software. And the price difference is not a dramatic as you may think when you compare apples to apples - including load ratings, etc. But yes, it will certainly cost more up front to install.

Things I dis-liked about UPB:
- price
- complaints about fitting multiple dimmers into a multi-outlet gang box

I don't personally think there is an issue with fitment. While Insteon devices are a bit smaller, current UPB devices really have no problems fitting in jboxes. You may have read isolated stories like the older squared off US1130's having trouble fitting in specific metal work boxes, but those are VERY isolated and rare cases. I have US240's installed in standard 12 year old plastic boxes and while it can get tight in multigang boxes, there are no general problems.

 

[wuench]

I have Insteon right now. If you are looking into Insteon, I personally would put off making any large purchases for a few months and see where the technology stands at that point. That is what I am doing. BTW, there are some posts on other forums about new product announcements coming soon (this quarter). It is not clear exactly what all the products will be at this point.

I was also thinking it is about time we drop the price point argument between Insteon and UPB. Yes, individual prices are higher for UPB. And yes Icons are cheaper. But most people don't seem to be going the Icon route for large installs considering the limitations. Also, Insteon does not have cheaper slave switches and most of the time requires Signallincs, whereas UPB may not need a bridge. Not to mention SH's prices have gone up since that argument was first conceived.

I think you should carefully consider the price of your total install and not focus on individual component prices when making your decision.

 

[dwalder]

I am a user of the Insteon line. I have gotten frustrated waiting for the new products to arrive. It seems that "there will be an announcement any time now."

I have also ran into many problems with the quality of the switches. I have about 25 running in my house right now and with in a few months of being installed the manual switch seems to stop working. Either you cant turn the light on or you cant turn it off. I have read up on the problems and there seems to be a lot pointing to the springs in the devices. The devices do seem to work very well with the computer control (ie over the power line commands).

I would wait another 6 months or so to see if a lot of these problems are fixed with the Insteon product before making a purchase.

-Dave

 

[RWlodarczyk]

Don't know where you got your information from, but I would be willing to bet you UPB has many more nodes installed than Insteon. Insteon is more popular in DIY circles but UPB definitely is more popular with pros. I think you would also find that UPB has equal if not better and more robust support in your favorite HA software. And the price difference is not a dramatic as you may think when you compare apples to apples - including load ratings, etc. But yes, it will certainly cost more up front to install.

Things I dis-liked about UPB:
- price
- complaints about fitting multiple dimmers into a multi-outlet gang box

I don't personally think there is an issue with fitment. While Insteon devices are a bit smaller, current UPB devices really have no problems fitting in jboxes. You may have read isolated stories like the older squared off US1130's having trouble fitting in specific metal work boxes, but those are VERY isolated and rare cases. I have US240's installed in standard 12 year old plastic boxes and while it can get tight in multigang boxes, there are no general problems.

I've been looking at the UPB device more now based on the suggestion. What are the recommended UPB dimmers, switches, wall receptacles, and USB PC interface? Also, are there any SDKs available for UPB?

 

[Steve]

There are 3 main manufacturers (PCS/PulseWorx (the inventor)), HAI and SAI (Simply Automated). All of the stuff is similar but differ a bit in things like changeable faceplates (a big SAI plus), LED colors, keypads, etc. Other than that, they all work great and are interoperable with each other.

There is not an SDK per se because it is an open published protocol that is available for download from PCS.

If you want to give us some specifics, perhaps I can help more with product recommendations.

 

[RWlodarczyk]

If you want to give us some specifics, perhaps I can help more with product recommendations.

Sure. My home is ~3000 sq. ft. and built recently (Aug. 2006). What I'd like to do is replace all of my current light switches with dimmers (where it makes sense). For items like fireplaces or bathroom lights/vents or outdoor lights, regular on/off switches will be fine. By quick count my first floor will need about 8 dimmers, and about 5 on/off switches. One thing to mention is that I'll likely be doing all the hookup myself and in multiple phases... for example, I want to get my kitchen/living/family rooms done first.
At some point I'd also like to add garage door control (want to detect whether the door is open and add the ability to close it through some HA software).
My preference for HA software is HomeSeer. I suppose this has some SDK/plugin module. Also it has a simple web interface which I can use from my Cingular 8125 phone. At some point I'd probably want to write a small app for the phone so that my wife and easily use the home too.

As some other people have pointed out, this whole HA project needs to be done right the first time around. If anything fails the first time through, this will significantly reduce the WAF. So, I prefer to spend more time up front hearing out other people's experiences and opinions rather than making a quick decision.

Oh, one more question about UPB... how do you bridge the two phases in your house? Insteon has an RF phase bridge for this, is there a phase bridge for UPB too?

 

[KenM]

Pictures...

The 3 on the left are INSTEON. The one on the right is Intermatic Z-Wave.

Front Picture

Side Picture

I used INSTEON for seven months, then switched to Z-Wave. I have used Z-Wave for six months. I am happy with Z-Wave. INSTEON is a good product. I got tired of the 'growing pains' and lack of RF devices.

Ken

 

[Steve]

Answering backwards, yes, there are several phase couplers for UPB but most likely you won't even need one. The UPB signal is strong. I have roughly 3000 sq ft too with no coupler and still get excellent signal on both phases.

Are you using strictly software like HS, or considering a panel like Elk, Omni or JDS? HS does have a UPB plug in.

I would probably suggest buying a $100 UPB starter kit from AO and trying it out before making any real commitments. It is probably more than a $400 value and has everything you need to get started.

I use SAI equipment and I tested them all. PCS is more expensive but has a better warranty. I liked the LED colors, higher wattage rating and changeable faceplates on SAI which moved me over HAI.

 

[ano]

UPB is great. I have about 45 switches running and no problems. One really nice thing about UPB, is that most switches can be programmed to be a dimmer or a non-dimmer. Having come from X-10, this was a big pain in X-10 because if you wanted to power a ceiling fan, use a non-dimming switch. But to control a light, use a dimming switch. With UPB, most switches can do both. Decide you want a compact fluorescent to save some power, change one setting from your PC, and the switch can accommodate. Want to go back to it being a dimmer, no problem.

That feature alone makes UPB very attractive.

On switches, PCS is good but expensive. So between HAI and SA, I think HAI switches have a better feel, but the SA switches are much more flexible with the changable faceplates. Its a great idea, and SA does it well.

 

[ChrisWalker]

I would venture to say that, by volume, Z-Wave devices are the most popular standards-based products in the market (other than X10).

Chris