Near-term Buying Decision

dutchyn

Active Member
Please excuse the length of this post, but preliminary drawings are complete, and they're out for pricing. Home automation is one of those pricing items; so it is time to get a reality check, look for missing items, and get real dollar amounts. I cannot find anyone locally to consult or contract on this. I've highlighted the key questions.

The house will be a modest 1800 square feet, with a 1400 square foot walkout basement. Master bedroom and office on main floor; two children's rooms and spare room in basement. Large mechanical (270 sqft) area (for geothermal, water tank and pressure system, electrical panel), and a separate 7.5 sqft (centrally located) wiring closet in basement to contain the HA hardware, lighting, ethernet/wifi networking, and termination for 3 doorbells, 2 telephone lines, and audio/video distribution.

Cabling: The plans call for home-run 2+2 to
  • main floor (10 locations)
    • master bedroom (1 locations)
    • office (2 locations)
    • master bedroom walk-in-closet
    • great room (2 side-by-side locations for audio/video)
    • kitchen (1 location)
    • garage (1 location)
    • garage entrance (1 location for security keypad)
    • main entrance (1 location for security keypad)
  • basement (6 locations)
    • bedrooms (3 in total)
    • rec room (2 side-by-side locations for audio/video)
    • mud room entrance (1 location for security keypad)
  • doorbells (3)
  • line-of-sight radio internet
Security: is
  • (at most) ten glass-break or individual window monitors,
  • three door monitors,
  • between three and five smoke detectors.
  • One keypad by each of three entrances.
Audio/video is simple (I hope):
  • three (or four) zones of in-ceiling speakers on the main floor
    • kitchen/dining,
    • great room (5.1 audio with wall-mount TV, CD, DVD, ipod jack),
    • covered deck,
    • (optionally) master bedroom,
  • two zones in the basement:
    • rec room (5.1 audio with wall-mount TV, CD, DVD, ipod jack)
    • under deck
  • Wiring for one dual LUN satellite dish (is it 4 quad-shielded RG-60?) terminated at the wiring panel.
  • Any other wiring for speakers and AV connectivity?
HAI has an audio system that's available as a single-vendor solution -- nobody talks about it -- does that mean nobody's got it?. Control4 is a local solution, but remote connectivity via subscription service to the US is unpalatable. Most people talk about Russound CAV/CAM systems -- are they the way to go?

HVAC: two thermostats, one controlling basement in-floor heat (Climatemaster Genesis) and other controlling geothermal air handler for main floor (Climatemaster Tranquility 27). What thermostats are supported for these units? Climatemaster and my local installer responded to this question with (essentially) "we will put in our thermostats, so don't worry." My questions, "what other ones can we use? what warranty issues might arise if we use the HAI ones?" were ignored. Who else has installed these geothermal units and driven them from HA systems? I know some people in this forum have installed these units, and connected them to Johnson controls HA, is that high-end system the only way? The units come with CXM controllers, are DXM required to attach to anything other than Climatemaster's thermostats? In particular, HAI has some very nice thermostats.

Lighting: this is the most uncertain. I like hardwire solutions (Centralite Litejet -- 48 zones is overkill, 24 zones isn't quite enough -- I suppose I could put some less-used lights directly onto the HA controller (eg. mechanical room, closets, storage room, etc.) But, if the central relay panel fails no lights work; UPB failures still have regular switching capability. The wireless (Centralite/ELK Jetstream, or HAI UPB-based systems) seem to be cheaper, more resilient to total failure, but less reliable for daily operation. If you were doing it again, would you go with LV wiring, powerline control, or wireless? In many ways, this decision fixes the HA system also.

HA:
  • master water shutoff,
  • garage door opening/closing (3-bays),
  • automatic audio/video mute on telephone ring
  • key fob access for garage door and lighting would be nice but not critical.
The real problem is ELK? or HAI? or someone else? ELK seems more open and more cost-effective, but HAI offers a single-vendor solution (a definite advantage if something fails). Elk has a large fraction of the install available through the Centralite JetStream package, but the warranty includes enough exclusions (security equipment, HVAC, AV, unauthorized adjustments) that it's unclear that there's any coverage left after I extend it with HVAC, AV, and security. Control4 has been suggested: it's plus is that a local company sells and installs it. For ELK or HAI I might be "DIY"ing anything the electricians don't do. Can anyone comment on installations through long-distance dealers -- the nearest Centralite dealer is in the next province over. The DIY doesn't bother me -- I'm a compsci prof who spent a few years working as computer network install and tech support -- I know phone systems, punchdown BIX blocks, RS-232 cabling, Cat5e curvature limitations, hubs, routers, etc. But the supplier distance does bother me.

I'm hoping that your war-stories, and insight into various products might inform my decision. For example, how reliable is UPB -- some say 99% they work great, others say 75% of the time a second press is required before the right scene/light turns on. I recall some rumour that LiteJet was being deprecated ... does anyone have more information? How well does JetStream work -- anybody actually got it?

Last, I need to figure out costs -- I estimate I have $10-15K to spend on extra wiring (over and above the usual switches, wires, breakers, etc) and components (not including TVs, DVD players, satellite receivers). Since companies don't give out prices (either they say nothing, or they give incomplete ones like suggested retail not including installation and programming) I have no idea what my system might cost. Rules of thumb are $3-5 / sqft, so I think I'm in the ballpark, but who knows ... well, (collectively) this community does.

Chris Dutchyn
 
I assume "home-run 2+2" refers to two cat5e and two RG6QS to a single location. If you do that to the bedrooms, do you intend to place a phone and TV on a night stand, or will you have the phone and TV across the room? I'd suggest two locations in each bedroom to make it more flexible. I found how handy the flexibility is when I was in bed for a month after a traffic crash.

I suggest you do a search for Number20 (Tony Stewart of SetNet) and study his instructive posts on hardwired lighting. I found them after our new abode was finished, else I'd have home run a cat5e from every light switch box to the wiring closet. I've used X10 for 25 years or so with excellent results, but it is hardly the professional solution. I still may retrofit some OnQ ALC devices eventually. Such is the luxury of a full, unfinished basement.

Finally, ya' might want to rethink that 7.5 Sq Ft wiring closet. Your $10-15K budget will fill that pretty fast. You don't score extra points by packing more cable and components into the smallest possible space.

Chris, I hope you enjoy your home build as much as I enjoyed ours.
 
If you were doing it again, would you go with LV wiring, powerline control, or wireless? In many ways, this decision fixes the HA system also.

Without question, a LV hardwired system. If nothing else, wire for it now when the walls are open. Wire is cheap, fishing wire later is not. Then you can always go back in and add smart dimmers later as the budget allows.
 
I assume "home-run 2+2" refers to two cat5e and two RG6QS to a single location.

Yes, it means exactly that. Four more runs are negligable cost -- so we'll do it, even though I'm philosophically opposed to TVs in the bedroom (especially young children).

I suggest you do a search for Number20 (Tony Stewart of SetNet) and study his instructive posts on hardwired lighting.
What do you do for insulating the cat5 against 120VAC?

Finally, ya' might want to rethink that 7.5 Sq Ft wiring closet. Your $10-15K budget will fill that pretty fast.

I can't make the closet larger, so everything would have to move to the mechanical room. I do have 9' ceilings, and (estimated) five 16"OC stud bays to work with.

Chris, I hope you enjoy your home build as much as I enjoyed ours.

Thanks! It's good to hear that somebody did end up enjoying it. I'm particularly looking forward to the toys automation devices.

Chris D.
 
I am very happy with my HAI Omnipro II. I can't find something that it isn't capable of doing except maybe the access control module that is elk native. I didn't research ELK nearly enough but like you said I liked the HAI model. My only gripe and I don't know if this is possible with the Elk is that I don't know if my AC is running. Essential the thermostat gets commands from the Omni but it (the thermostat) doesn't talk back. I wish it could communicate back to say I am running now and I am turning off now. It will give you the found temperature at the thermostat but not much else. There is a new thermostat coming out but I don't know if it is going to correct this issue. I have contemplated replacing the thermostat's primary function with programming if possible. Essentially the termostat is just a relay and replaced with a temperature sensor and some output to relays.

I don't know if that helped but I am really fond of the Omni Pro and there is a good community that is helpful. I am also a huge fan of UPB but I find the more advanced functions like scene switches and home controllers to be confusing but thats something I need to deal with. I can't find a flaw with UPB that would make me want to do a direct wired solution even if I had the option.

Neil
 
Chris,

The big benefit to hardwire lighting is the reliability. It is a closed system immune to outside influence so it will always remain virtually 100%. Any other system PLC (UPB, Insteon, X10) depends on a medium (either your power lines or open air) that can be influenced and polluted by noise or interference. So most of the time the recommendation is if you have the budget, do hardwire. Now withing hardwire, you have the choice of a homerun system like Centralite, or a traditionally wired system like ALC with a hardwire control network. They will both work well but some prefer to maintain the 'tradition' of the wiring system for resale purposes, etc. If that is a factor for you, ALC or EDT are your choices. If you go that route a great solution is as you mentioned, a hybrid, where you can have your critical lights on ALC and then supplement that with UPB where you want, although I would be very tempted on a new build to pull Cat5 to ALL the switches and decide later if some will just get UPB. If you don't hardwire at all, UPB is my preference for automation.

I'm not convinced on the "HAI single vendor" argument. Arguably there are some things HAI only does, or does better than Elk and vice-versa. The HiFi by HAI for example while it is sold specific for HAI is really a repackaged/customized Nuvo Essentia. But unless you are planning touchscreens at all locations, it loses some of its appeal. Elk has Russound very nicely integrated into their touchpanel. Both Russound and Nuvo are also supported by most of the software out there too (assuming you will do some sort of touchscreen interface at some point). I would have no hesitation in using say an Elk panel and HAI t-stat. You will get nothing but exceptional support from Elk. Others have recently stated they have gotten good diy support from HAI although HAI has traditionally catered to the pro market. They are both great systems so I understand the difficulty in choosing. My vote would marginally go to Elk for a diy'er because of their proven support for diy crowd (just look at all the posts here by Spanky, the chief engineer from Elk) and I think programming the Elk is a little easier for a novice.

Also I would be hesitant to let regular electricians do your pre-wire, they rarely know the 'rules' I would try to find a low voltage contractor and go with them.

And you will need to do some careful and creative planning to get all that stuff into a 7.5' closet for sure and have any semblance of neatness and room for maintenance.
 
"Who else has installed these geothermal units and driven them from HA systems?"

I have installed a HydroHeat geothermal, and operate it with a HeatPump compatible RCS Thermostat Controller that is plugged into a RCS 8 RS485 hub to RS232 which is plugged into my PC server, running MainLobby and the MLRCSThermo software plugin. The system has a propane secondary furnace for the cold days (like today).

Additional to that (but very optional) I have 1-Wire temp sensors to monitor the various water temps, filter status, etc. for system tuning and FYI purposes. This also feeds back to a RS232 port and is monitored by the PC. Data goes to a SQL database.

The geo unit you are looking at (I am not familiar with it) maybe using it's own proprietary thermo that might do some of the monitoring my home brew setup does. The issue for automation, is if it can be connected bidirectionally with an automation system, whether the protocol is publically available, and whethe the controller hardware (HAI?) or software (if PC based) supports that unit. Since I haven't heard much of the geo unit you write about, the odds get dimmer on plug and play integration.

If your geo unit speaks of "continuosly variable fan for perfect climate control" or similar, then that proprietary thermostat may be essential and not able to be replaced as it might not be sending the base "Fan on / off, Compressor on / off, Secondary heat on / off" commands that most automation friendly heat pump friendly thermostats support (RCS and HAI and a few others).
 
If you were doing it again, would you go with LV wiring, powerline control, or wireless?
I have 60 or 70 ALC switches along with an Aegis 2000 (Omni Pro with extras) controller in a house that was built in 2000. If I were building another house right now I'm not sure if I'd go with ALC again, but I would definitely home-run a Cat5 to every light switch box just in case.

My ALC experience has been a mixed one. I suspect that OnQ has improved things in the last 8 years, but I've had several switches go bad where they exhibit erratic behaviour or fail to respond. A few months ago I had one that would communicate with the automation controller (report local on/off events), but would not switch the load. Very odd - usually when they fail it's the other way around. Also, all of my ALC relay switches pre-date the modification that makes them work properly with CFL bulbs, so in places where I've replaced incandescent bulbs with CFLs I've had to keep one incandescent in the circuit to keep the ALC relay from freaking out. That's very annoying since they're expensive and time consuming to swap out.

Having lived with ALC for 7½ years, the things I don't like are:
  • Reliability.
    See above for details. I have several X10 switches in outlets that the LV pre-wire guys forgot or where the load is >1000W (ALC dimmers at the time couldn't handle that), and I've had to replace a few of them as well, so ALC isn't any worse than those vendors statistically. Still, when I'm paying $100+ per switch I expect it to work and be extremely robust. I should mention that I've never had a speck of trouble with the two PCS X10 switches I have. The ones that have given me problems have been cheaper ones from X10 Pro or Smarthome.
  • Speed.
    My ALC setup is slow to respond to anything other than a command involving a single unit. I don't know if that's because the Omni Pro controller is too slow or if it's inherent in the ALC protocol. One of the pros or cons (depending on your viewpoint) with the ALC + Omni system is that the ALC switches are essentially dumb communicating switches. Any sort of scene capabilities are handled by programming in the Omni. My "All basement lights off" scene is 11 lines of programming in the Omni. What's odd is that it takes either the Omni or the ALC board on the Omni several seconds to digest the changes, then all of the units go off within milliseconds of each other. I've had several troubleshooting conversations with HAI over that particular macro and its all-on companion; we managed to get it sped up a little, but it doesn't want to go much faster than 5 or 6 seconds. Delays like that make the average Joe wonder why they should bother spending so much money on home automation.
  • Reliance on the Omni.
    This would not apply in a system where the automation controller is more loosely coupled with the lighting controller. The ideal system in my opinion is one where the lighting controller operates independently, but communicates with the automation controller to notify it of lighting activity and accept commands. That way, the setup and operation of the lighting is not affected when the automation controller is being programmed or is otherwise 'down'.
    I like the direction HAI has gone with UPB; my only reservation would be if UPB is truly 99.99% reliable in a big house with lots of noisy devices. The idea that the switches themselves function independently of the controller for scene control is nice. It means that they can theoretically respond instantly to complex scene commands rather than having to wait for a central controller to transmit state information to every switch in the scene.
Some things I'd do differently next time:
  • Home-run the LV control wires.
    Unless total distance is going to be a problem, home-run the Cat5 since it greatly simplifies troubleshooting. Chances are, at least one of your Cat5 runs will get messed up by the drywall crew or some other crew that has work to do after the wiring stage. The low-voltage contractor and I spent countless hours with a wire tracing device trying to find and bypass bad sections of cable in daisy-chained ALC runs. That was not fun.
  • Wire 3-way circuits as you would for normal high voltage 3-way situations.
    Not only will that allow the next owner (or you) to revert to plain old dumb switches, you can use the traveller wire as the control wire from the auxiliary switch to the main switch. Of course, you can use the LV wires instead if that's easier, but the traveller wire will be otherwise unconnected so you can use its 2 conductors if you want.
  • Make the builder use the largest/deepest electrical box possible on every switch. It is a major pain trying to replace a switch and get everything (especially that little ground wire) hooked up correctly. Multi-gang boxes are the worst.
  • Run a line-voltage wire (not live) to places where you just have a LV scene switch. Some technologies like UPB don't currently have LV scene switches, so in my case if I wanted to change from ALC to UPB I'd have to keep my existing Cat5 KPL7 scene switches or find some way to power UPB ones over a Cat5.
  • Test whatever technology I'm considering to see if it responds quickly enough to simple on/off commands as well as more complex scenes involving 5-10 units. A lot of people find the 1st gen UPB devices too slow to respond to a local "on" tap since the switch is waiting for the double-tap timeout to expire. This would be a non-starter for me. The double-tap detection should not stop the switch from operating the local load; they should have done it the way GUIs handle a double-click. A single-click event gets generated and is followed by a double-click event if the second click follows quickly enough.
  • Have the electrician keep lighting circuits separate from everything else and explicitly label every circuit. Perhaps this is code now in some places, but if you're looking at powerline technology like UPB or even X10 it makes it easier to isolate noisy devices when they're on a distinct circuit. Automation aside, this is nice to have in situations such as when you want to replace a light fixture. You can turn off the lighting breaker and still have outlet power in the room to plug in a work light. If it means a bigger breaker panel and more wiring, so be it - the incremental cost is not that great. Some of the newer automated switches have an air gap mode that physically disconnects power to the load - that's nice too.
Lest it seem like it's all negative, the things I like about my current setup are:
  • Flexibility.
    The tight coupling of the Omni and the ALC controller gives me a lot of control, and the light switches generate on/off events that can be used to trigger other things.
  • Style.
    The ALC relays and dimmers (I have the dimpled style - the only kind available back then) look and feel nice.
  • Ease of labelling.
    I have 10 of the RCS KPL-7 keypads. While not my idea of the perfect scene controller, I especially like the fact that I can just print out a new set of labels any time I decide to change the programming. You can't read them in the dark since there's no backlight, but I'll take that over having to pay (and wait) to have buttons custom etched. The SmartHome KeypadLinc with clear buttons is a nice design for that reason IMHO.
That's all I can think of for now... I've probably forgotten a few other things that I either love or hate, but when you've lived with the system every day for so long you eventually take those things for granted and you don't think of them until they impress/annoy you again.
 
My alc switches are not 8 years old. Maybe thats why I have not had one single problem mentioned above. Never fails, never breaks. Always works. Wouldnt consider anything else for my next house than ALC. Although, Vantage is looking appealing now after reviewing it last week.
 
Some things I'd do differently next time:
  • Home-run the LV control wires.
    Unless total distance is going to be a problem, home-run the Cat5 since it greatly simplifies troubleshooting. Chances are, at least one of your Cat5 runs will get messed up by the drywall crew or some other crew that has work to do after the wiring stage. The low-voltage contractor and I spent countless hours with a wire tracing device trying to find and bypass bad sections of cable in daisy-chained ALC runs. That was not fun.

If having the control wire cut by the drywallers is the concern, then the best solution is to loop the circuit. Run it as a normal daisy chain, then run a cable from the last one back to the controller as well. This way if the wire is damaged between two devices, each still has a good path back to the controller.

Of course, if it is damaged in two places you screwed. :eek:
 
Vantage is looking appealing now after reviewing it last week.
I have played with RA, Homeworks, Q-Link (I look forward to playing with Infusion), UPB and more. Vantage is BY FAR AND AWAY my absolute favorite lighting product. Crazy beautiful and stupid fast. If I win the lotto (I've got to start buying tickets) I'll be a proud Vantage owner in a heartbeat...
 
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