Need advice on new home automation system

[sprague]

Right now I have a blank slate on a home, so I want to get this right the first time and make sure I have all the necessary wires. My goal is to automate the security, fire, lighting, HVAC, audio, and video. I have read a lot of posts on this site and others, and have come up with a basic list below of my current choices, but I am new to home automation and still lack some understanding in certain areas such as software controls. Any help on what components I should change or add would be greatly appreciated, as I mentioned I am new to all of this and want to make sure I do it right.

Security/Fire
Elk M1G – I am going to hardwire the fire and security with homeruns back to the M1G.

Lighting/HVAC
ISY-99i (this is a combo package with the Elk M1G @ smarthome) – Using Insteon for light switches and thermostat.

Audio System
I am considering either the Lync or MC-66 whole-house audio system from HTD.com, this is a fairly large house, so I would like to do about 12 zones. I looked at Russound and NuVo, but they seemed a little too high priced if I could make the HTD system work. This is one area I am confused on how to integrate the audio system with the rest of the home automation. It has an rs232 connection, but I am not sure what to do from there. I would like to be able to control the volume and audio source in each zone from an iPhone/iPad or Android device.

Video
Still not sure what I am going to use for this. My first thought is to build a HTPC server and over time put a media extender of some sort (xbox 360 or nettopPC) at each TV. I am running a coax and CAT5 to each TV location for future expansion. I don’t know that it is as important to integrate this to control from iPhone etc., but I would like to be able to stream something different to each device so an HTPC server sounds like the best option.

Software
I am also at a loss when it comes to picking the software to use. I know there are several options, but from what I have read only Homeseer will integrate with both the Elk and ISY-99i. I am not sure however if it will integrate with the HTD audio system. I have seen CQC mentioned, but know very little about it. Ultimately I would like to be able to control everything from an iPhone/iPad or Android device while at home or away, all from one application if possible.

 

[electron]

Welcome to CocoonTech!

I'm in a rush right now, so here is a link to help you figure out some of the software options out there.

http://www.cocoontech.com/portal/lists/home-automation-software

That said, the ELK/ISY-99 are solid choices.

 

[Dean Roddey]

If you are using the Elk, you'd access the ISY stuff I assume through the Elk, so any software package that supports the Elk should be ok, right? Though we do have an ISY driver as well, discussed here on our forum:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=6889

And we also support Android and iOS clients, as well as Windows clients. For multi-zone audio, one thing that our customers generally do is use a multi-output audio card in their media server. We have a headless audio player (runs in the background) and you can install one per audio card output pair. So each one plays out through a different pair. You can either run those to dedicated powered speakers in rooms, or through a switcher/amplifier.

 

[Zellarman]

I have an Insteon based lighting system and use the ISY 99 along with it, I love and highly recommend it. Smart home sells the elk system with an ISY, so the two obviously must integrate, I actually plan on picking up the elk as well. As far as RS232 control of anything goes, the ISY should be up to that task as well, though you'll need to purchase the additional web module, (it's a software packet that gets installed through the web) and a port server (they're pricey new, but I managed to pick one up on eBay for around $50) I'm using ithe Rule app to control all A/V and my lighting as well, I just needed to get an iTach IP2IR to handle the IR side of it. The iTach unit also meshed with the ISY through the web module as well. With my current setup, I have an 'ALL OFF' button that shuts all lighting off ( not that big of a deal) but also shuts off some A/V equipment via IR, my two DirecTV STB's via network, and remaining A/V equipment through RS232. I'm new to CT, but the iRule thread on AVS forum and Universal Devices forum were instrumental in me accomplishing my level of control. Originally I was very happy with my insteon system, then I was given an iPad as a gift, and discovered the iRule app, I then bought the iTach so I could use my iPad as a remote, but I never expected all to mesh together. And the overall effect was essentially synergistic, way better than the sum of the two as individual systems, I'm eagerly anticipating installation of an elk alarm system.

Do let us know the direction you end up going.

Also, I'd recommend running at least four cat 5 (really 5e or 6) and two coax to your TV locations, plenty of people might suggest even more, but what you're presently planning certainly isn't enough.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'll just mention - when going with the Elk to monitor Fire, pay close attention to the fact that it changes some requirements; specifically the battery size and the requirement to have certain things wired with firewire (including at least one keypad). That's one of the more confusing topics you'll come across here.

Also, check the various software packages and what audio systems they support - it's quite likely you'll find that it's best to shell out a little extra for a Nuvo or a Russound since they're supported by just about every system.

Also - you can only get the insteon bundle through Smarthome - but, if you were to call someone like Automated Outlet and tell them the whole package you want, including the Nuvo - they just might be able to narrow that pricing gap a bit for you.

 

[sprague]

Welcome to CocoonTech!

I'm in a rush right now, so here is a link to help you figure out some of the software options out there.

That said, the ELK/ISY-99 are solid choices.

Thank you for the link. I had looked through the options on that page and it seems CQC or Homeseer are my best options as far as software control goes, however I am leaning more towards CQC at this point.

If you are using the Elk, you'd access the ISY stuff I assume through the Elk, so any software package that supports the Elk should be ok, right? Though we do have an ISY driver as well, discussed here on our forum:

And we also support Android and iOS clients, as well as Windows clients. For multi-zone audio, one thing that our customers generally do is use a multi-output audio card in their media server. We have a headless audio player (runs in the background) and you can install one per audio card output pair. So each one plays out through a different pair. You can either run those to dedicated powered speakers in rooms, or through a switcher/amplifier.

I am not sure how exactly the Elk interfaces with ISY, if it is better to control the ISY through the ELK or vice versa. Can anyone else with this setup shed some light on what is the best option?

After reading through the site about CQC it seems to have more community support and options available, it looks like it will be the best choice.

I have an Insteon based lighting system and use the ISY 99 along with it, I love and highly recommend it. Smart home sells the elk system with an ISY, so the two obviously must integrate, I actually plan on picking up the elk as well. As far as RS232 control of anything goes, the ISY should be up to that task as well, though you'll need to purchase the additional web module, (it's a software packet that gets installed through the web) and a port server (they're pricey new, but I managed to pick one up on eBay for around $50) I'm using ithe Rule app to control all A/V and my lighting as well, I just needed to get an iTach IP2IR to handle the IR side of it. The iTach unit also meshed with the ISY through the web module as well. With my current setup, I have an 'ALL OFF' button that shuts all lighting off ( not that big of a deal) but also shuts off some A/V equipment via IR, my two DirecTV STB's via network, and remaining A/V equipment through RS232. I'm new to CT, but the iRule thread on AVS forum and Universal Devices forum were instrumental in me accomplishing my level of control. Originally I was very happy with my insteon system, then I was given an iPad as a gift, and discovered the iRule app, I then bought the iTach so I could use my iPad as a remote, but I never expected all to mesh together. And the overall effect was essentially synergistic, way better than the sum of the two as individual systems, I'm eagerly anticipating installation of an elk alarm system.

Do let us know the direction you end up going.

Also, I'd recommend running at least four cat 5 (really 5e or 6) and two coax to your TV locations, plenty of people might suggest even more, but what you're presently planning certainly isn't enough.

Thank you for the information. I will look into the iTach, that sounds like something I would want for this setup.

You are right, I probably should include more cat (5e or 6) runs to each TV location, however why do you suggest 2 coax?

I'll just mention - when going with the Elk to monitor Fire, pay close attention to the fact that it changes some requirements; specifically the battery size and the requirement to have certain things wired with firewire (including at least one keypad). That's one of the more confusing topics you'll come across here.

Also, check the various software packages and what audio systems they support - it's quite likely you'll find that it's best to shell out a little extra for a Nuvo or a Russound since they're supported by just about every system.

Also - you can only get the insteon bundle through Smarthome - but, if you were to call someone like Automated Outlet and tell them the whole package you want, including the Nuvo - they just might be able to narrow that pricing gap a bit for you.

Thank you, I had read some of the posts regarding the fire wire being needed for smokes and keypads, I missed the part about needing a larger battery. I do plan on running fire wire to each smoke and also to each keypad, I will have to research the power requirements for all those devices to make sure I have the correct battery.

I really like the NuVo Grand Concerto system, it would make things much simpler to get a system I know for sure will integrate. I will have to contact Automated Outlet to see if they can help me fit that system in my budget, that would be great if I could work it out. I had originally had the grand idea of purchasing the base model amp system from HTD, purchasing an Airport Express for each zone (12 in total, then back in the media closet have all the Airport Express connected via the LAN and running the audio out from each device to the individual zone inputs on the amp....that way I could control the audio supplied to each zone from the iPad or iPhone. The cost would have actually been lower than the NuVo system, but I don't think it would work beyond 6 Airport Express devices. Oh well, at least it was a fun thought process trying to be so creative.

 

[Neurorad]

I suggest calling AO by PHONE, ask for a salesman. Read the Grand Concerto instructions. The MPS4E Music Port music server + the GC is a fantastic setup; the MPS4E is the only component I have feeding my GC - no tuner, not really necessary.

http://www.nuvotechnologies.com/music_port.htm

I'm pretty sure that AO will beat all advertised prices, for Nuvo.

Here's a pic of the MPS4 iPad app:

 

[Neurorad]

Your AHJ may want 110v smoke detectors. If so, than any additional smokes attached to the Elk are gravy, and the need for firewire and larger battery may be moot.

Is this new construction?

 

[sprague]

Your AHJ may want 110v smoke detectors. If so, than any additional smokes attached to the Elk are gravy, and the need for firewire and larger battery may be moot.

Is this new construction?

I had read some posts on using the 110v smoke and daisy chain them with 1 homerun back to the Elk, but some mentioned that might not meet code. This is a remodel, the home is stripped down to the studs so running wire will be much easier right now.

 

[Del91574]

Ask the AHJ about the smokes and then if acceptable, I'd use LV over 110V units any day and forget trying to tie the 110V units into the alarm somehow.

 

[kertofer]

If you are looking at Multi zone audio, I think you should take a look at Sonos. I have had it for several years and just love it. Very easy to expand to extra zones and integrates with homeseer via a plugin. I have been using homeseer for a year or so and love it as well.

 

[jskibo]

Not sure how it comes out in the package at Smarthome, but the M1Gold standalone pricing is ~$200 more there than the lowest I have seen....

 

[Digger]

You can often find the same products Smarthome sells much cheaper elsewhere from companies with better reputations and better BBB ratings.

 

[Neurorad]

For big purchases, I always CALL by PHONE to Automated Outlet, and speak to a salesman.

My AHJ is an invaluable resource, very responsive to questions.

I have read of at least 1 AHJ requiring all alarm cables to be 'firewire', if there are no 110v smokes. He may also request that the alarm be installed to UL specs, which is very restrictive (I don't recall specifically how - maybe Digger or DEL could shed some light on that).

I think tying the alarm into the 110v smokes is pretty easy, from what I've read, but I haven't done it. DEL, what's the difficulty with doing that?

 

[Del91574]

:horse:

110V smokes and alarms in my state and with AHJ's are like oil and water, especially for myself as a pro and electrical contractor/engineered systems specialist. Easy to do, yes, but it's opening up a big can of worms and genrally skirting the grey areas for what is acceptable and allowable for code and what the AHJ's view as smoke alarm vs. smoke detector, burglar alarm panel and combination FACP.

Ancillary notification is one thing for local notification, but to use them as a full blown fire system, FACP and a monitored system, I'd avoid it like the plague, no matter who asked. Unless not allowed by the AHJ, which I personally haven't experienced, I'd always choose a LV detector over a 110V unit unless it was for a standalone "buzzer" only.

My experiences as well as what the marshals and AHJ's I deal with are that people get a false sense of security in these sorts of installations and they are typically more prone to falses and other issues that the system will not be able to properly supervise or generate an alarm condition.

I'm not going to argue the point of how it could be done or has been done, as Digger would chime in on, but I'm dealing with extremely high end projects on the residential side and enterprise level, healthcare/hospital and gaming on the commercial side, with a few of the sites I deal with having their own AHJ's and fire marshals, and in one particular case, the AHJ supercedes the municipalities and state involved and is federal/military, but then again, what do I know?