Newbie would appreciate some help with ELK M1

[KidCalledZero]

I have been lurking for a while doing research on home automation and belive I want to purchase an ELM M1 to control my outdoor lighting and irrigation systems.

I have a couple question that I hope someone can answer before I take the dive and purchase the hardware.

My outdoor lighting is low voltage 12V and I will have 3 transformers located outside on three sides of my house. I want to be able to break my lighting into several zones per transformer and control each zone remotely through the M1 system. Ideally I would like to locate the M1 relays next to the transformers in weatherproof enclosures right next to the transformers and run each lighting zone from the relay box to the lights. I simply need contacts to open and close as the power will be provided by the lighting transformers. This brings me to my first question.

Can I remotely locate the relay boards away from the main M1 enclosure and if so, how far can I go and what type of wire is required?

This leads to my next question which involves my irrigation system. Assuming I can locate the relays remotely from the main M1 enclosure, oI assume I will need a 24V power supply to run through the relays to drive my irrigation valves or does ELK make a stand alone 24V irrigation control module or is there a 3rd party that does?

My final question is about interfacing with the M1. I would very much like to have a stand alone touch screen. Something larger than 3 inches. I see the the ELK touch screen has been discontinued. Are there other touch screens that will interface with the M1? I read that ELK is working on a ipad application but it isnt available yet. Do all touch pads require the use of a home ethernet network or do some operate directly with the M1?

Any help on these issues would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[wuench]

I have been lurking for a while doing research on home automation and belive I want to purchase an ELM M1 to control my outdoor lighting and irrigation systems.

I have a couple question that I hope someone can answer before I take the dive and purchase the hardware.

My outdoor lighting is low voltage 12V and I will have 3 transformers located outside on three sides of my house. I want to be able to break my lighting into several zones per transformer and control each zone remotely through the M1 system. Ideally I would like to locate the M1 relays next to the transformers in weatherproof enclosures right next to the transformers and run each lighting zone from the relay box to the lights. I simply need contacts to open and close as the power will be provided by the lighting transformers. This brings me to my first question.

Can I remotely locate the relay boards away from the main M1 enclosure and if so, how far can I go and what type of wire is required?

This leads to my next question which involves my irrigation system. Assuming I can locate the relays remotely from the main M1 enclosure, oI assume I will need a 24V power supply to run through the relays to drive my irrigation valves or does ELK make a stand alone 24V irrigation control module or is there a 3rd party that does?

My final question is about interfacing with the M1. I would very much like to have a stand alone touch screen. Something larger than 3 inches. I see the the ELK touch screen has been discontinued. Are there other touch screens that will interface with the M1? I read that ELK is working on a ipad application but it isnt available yet. Do all touch pads require the use of a home ethernet network or do some operate directly with the M1?

Any help on these issues would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

You can locate the relay boards away from the main M1 enclosure. The M1 uses and RS485 bus, you just need to run 4 wires (18-22ga) to each location, a lot of people just run CAT5 and use an M1DBH hub. Max bus length (total) can't exceed 4000 ft, but if using a M1DBH you have to count the length twice.

You can use a regular 24v transformer for your irrigation, just make sure when you program the elk not to turn on more zones than your transformer can handle. For you lighting make sure you don't exceed the ratings on the Elk relays, last time I calculated it they were kind of limiting as to how many LV lights they could handle. Here is a good thread on Elk and LV lighting.

 

[Del91574]

I remember a conversation I had with Brad from Elk that the M1's data bus can run a maximum of 4000' total, all runs.

You don't mention if your lights are 12VAC or 12VDC, but you'd be able to use a dry contact on an output expander to switch the power or if you use UPB or another lighting product, you'd be able to switch the 120V directly prior to the transformers.

I don't know which part of the country you are in, but I would avoid locating the system boards in unconditioned space personally. I'd use a separate relay like a 924 to trigger the lights, if you're dead set on installing relays near the loads in this case, but I wouldn't put a system board outside, raintite enclosure or not, but that's up to you.

I think a much wiser way to run would be for your lighting, if you must install a relay at the transformer's load, use something like a 924 and run a trigger back to the Elk.

Elk does not make any 24V triggers or an irrigation module, since most units are driven by voltage only, you would need to purchase a 24V supply that has enough ampacity to drive what your valves draw, and I'd factor in the size to make sure it'd be able to drive multiples or even all at the same time, just in case you have an overlap or the valves have a high startup current draw, but I run safe since I'm typically installing and integrating these for clients.

As far as a touchscreen, I have not heard anything about it being discontinued. Are you looking at the TS071? It's 7" and I just ordered a few of them on Thursday with a couple of M1G kits, so unless there's something going on I don't know of. The TS071 is connected via the ethernet to the home network for full functionality.

Cabling to the 485 bus, as stated, can be either a Category cable or traditional multiconductor. We've found in our in our installs to use a standard multiconductor to work a little better to account for voltage loss and allow us to take advantage of the ability to use the triggers and zone inputs at the keypads. We've typically run 22/8 or 22/10 to them. I can't necessarily agree with using the hub other than it makes it easier for someone that doesn't install these often to properly wire and terminate a 485 bus without introducing another possible failure point (the 8 pos. plug) as we've seen with improperly terminated plugs. I can't justify the expense or real estate in our enclosures for them, with the exception of a retrofit bus.

The one thing I do know of that does make a difference, but YMMV, is both HAI and the Elk touchscreens I've installed work a lot better with enterprise grade routers and switches over a consumer grade router, but I'm putting these in as a pro with a lot more networked hardware attached on the ethernet with them.

 

[KidCalledZero]

Looks like the relays are rated at 12 Amps per the thread you referenced.

I am not an EE but I see that someone did an amperage calculation and came up 25 amps when using a 300W transformer. Shouldnt that caculation be done on the total wattage of the bulbs across each relay and not the transformer rating?

I dont plan on having anywhere near 300W of bulbs across any one relay. More like 20 to 30 watts because I am using mostly LEDs.

No problem with the 4,000/2,000 length either. I will be withing 300 feet.

 

[tmbrown97]

Couple of things:
I don't think the Elk touchscreen has been discontinued - you may have been looking at their previous model; but given the investment they've put into finally building a screen customizer for integrators, that shouldn't be going away.
http://www.elkproduc...lor_Touchscreen

As wuench mentioned, you can locate the expanders anywhere - but I'm not sure where you intended to go - but since this is the same databus that connects your keypads and extenders, it should still be within the confines of your home and well secured; someone tampering with that will cause problems for the Elk (knock keypads offline, knock any other expanders offline, etc) - however, at least in most cases that will trigger the alarm in itself. What I did was use the 28" can that comes with the Elk and put that in my garage, and mounted an M1RB and M1XOVR in there to control a 10-zone sprinkler system and the garage doors - and a couple other things.

Also as wuench indicated - most people run the M1DBH so they can just terminate their cat5 with RJ45 ends and simplify running the cable; if you have concerns over the length (approaching the max) you can wire a separate branch for this run, or work around it. Generally Cat5/6 is better for running Serial long distances - it takes advantage of the twisted pairs to reduce interference on long runs.

Elk sells a 24VAC power supply that I used on my sprinklers - it's a self-resetting circuit break and had enough amperage that I would at times run multiple zones to keep pressure lower.

Edit: wow - three of us responded at once!

 

[tmbrown97]

Also to note - for my landscape lights I was tired of replacing bulbs too (per that linked thread) - so I ordered the LED replacements; they're even lower wattage and last forever - I just found the warm white ones so they'd match my other lighting.

 

[Del91574]

As wuench mentioned, you can locate the expanders anywhere - but I'm not sure where you intended to go - but since this is the same databus that connects your keypads and extenders, it should still be within the confines of your home and well secured; someone tampering with that will cause problems for the Elk (knock keypads offline, knock any other expanders offline, etc) - however, at least in most cases that will trigger the alarm in itself. What I did was use the 28" can that comes with the Elk and put that in my garage, and mounted an M1RB and M1XOVR in there to control a 10-zone sprinkler system and the garage doors - and a couple other things.

Edit: wow - three of us responded at once!

Part of my concern with the 485 bus, but exposing those circuit boards and connections to condensation (happens no matter how well sealed those outdoor boxes are) or the temperature extremes (in my area) would be my concern rather than running a trigger to a relay that is, in worst case, sacrificial if they start to rot out over time.

The plus side, is if you do the load calculations for the lighting legs, worst case scenario, if you have a dead short which exceeds the rating, you won't burn up the Elk output board or a relay on it. 25 amps sounds suspicious but I didn't look at that thread.

And slightly related:

It's not pretty if the 485 bus goes down like that. I have an install up the road from my house that I found out the hard way a couple of things on....First, the Elk low battery cutoff switch doesn't like Altronix power supplies. The tech note on Elk's site is because of my site. :angry:
Irregardless, I did a battery calc for an aux power supply in one of 4 outbuildings, sharing the same bus, and I had an incorrect temperature correction table, so standby times were off completely, extremely low. Power failure in winter, then the supply's voltage sagged because of the batteries not being sized right and losing a volt in the conversion via the supply, compounded with the cold affecting the battery's output. That leg of my bus has 1 KP, 3 KPAS', 4 XIN's and 2 XOVR's. Each address did a fail/reboot for each device, on top of every zone going into trouble, then alarm, then restore...multiple times. Wasn't pretty in the log nor at the central station.

I learned a lesson though, about Altronix supplies as well as the M1 and it's power requirements. M1's don't like anything less than 12V, and really want above that to be happy. Swapped that supply out, but a single 8AH battery became a 26AH after I had the proper correction.

 

[apostolakisl]

I have an Elk M1 and it does run my sprinkler. I don't have any relays controlling any other power loads (I have Insteon).

I would suggest not putting the relays outside. I agree with the above post about moisture issues. I ran my sprinkler wires into the house and located the relays right next to the main elk board. No matter what, you have to have a physical wired connection back to the Elk board, so I would suggest making it the sprinkler wires, not the Elk wires.

As far as the LV lighting, same thoughts about not putting the relays outside. You would need to switch the 120v wires going to the transformer, not the 12v coming out of the transformer. Elk relays are rated for 120v, I forget the amps so I won't agree with or deny the accuracy of what is written above (but it is in the manual). If your transformer draws too many amps for the Elk relay, you can do a double relay where the Elk relay activates a second relay that is supplying the load.

 

[tmbrown97]

Sorry guys - I missed the direct reference to "outside" - I was brushing by the topic just in case... but hoped the OP meant inside.

I absolutely agree - no part of your system should be outside in a space not climate controlled. I'd say pick a spot in the garage/shed/basement (depends on what you have) and extend your sprinkler and lighting into this centralized indoor space. It makes the system more vulnerable - both to outside threats and to environmental hazards.

DEL - your experience around the lost databus is exactly as I'd suspect - based on what I've seen with my own M1 when screwing with it in ways I shouldn't have. The good news is that it freaks out rather than going silent.

 

[KidCalledZero]

Thanks for all the great information.

I understand the problem with locating the relay board outside. If I use a trigger, which I assume is a 12V output signal from the M1 to trigger a stand alone exterior relay, does the trigger signal need to be continuous or do these stand alone relays lock? Does anyone have any suggestions on these stand alone relays or can I just use anything suitable for exterior use?

In regard to touch screens; Is the Elk my best choice? How easy is it to program and how felixible is the software?

I double checked those sites I referenced and they still indicate the Elk is discontinued. Being a newbie, I can post links but one of them was smarthome dot com.

I can run the irrigation wire all the way to the M1 but due to line loss/voltage drop, I cant run the lighting wire all the way to the M1. I need to keep it close to the transformer. The reason I want to place the relay on the low voltage side of the transformer is that I want to create multiple lighting zones with each transformer. I may want to place a relay on the 120V side just to power off the transformer when its not being used.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[tmbrown97]

1. Normally, the relays are only on as long as you're supplying voltage to them - they don't normally lock. If you want one that does you'd be searching for a latching relay - but that's probably not what you want.

2. honestly, I wouldn't do the Elk touchscreen - I'd find another home automation software product/controller... consider Elve or something like that; you can make much better interfaces; the disadvantage is that you have to make them; the advantage to Elk's not-so-pretty screens is that they work with zero configuration.

3. If you're talking about locating the relays close to the zones they control, then I definitely suggest picking up some relays and finding some waterproof enclosures and running just control wires to the relays - not extending the data bus all the way to the outdoor enclosures.

 

[apostolakisl]

I don't think you want latching relays. They would greatly complicate matters.

And, as you mentioned, if you don't switch the 120v side of the lighting transformer, it will be powered up all the time and certainly shorten its life and waste electricity. I don't know, but doubt it is good for the transformer to be powered up with no load on it for most of the day, every day. (I would check with the manufacturer on this).

I suspect you will also have trouble getting relays that can handle the big high gauge wires that LV systems use. You should have no trouble finding relays that can handle the 120 side, ebay sellers have them for a couple bucks.

You will need a power supply to drive those relays. I see no reason you could not use the same 24v ac power source that is driving your sprinkler solonoids. Just make sure you aren't exceeding the amp rating of the transformer (shouldn't be hard since relay coils draw miniscule amps).

Are you sure you don't want to zone your lights by having multiple transformers? I think you will have less trouble this way.

 

[Del91574]

I don't know if I can agree with using a 3rd party touchscreen in this case, outside of attempting to save a buck, but my issue in my specific case as a pro is something like a Ipad or any other PC hardware generally isn't UL listed, which is a requirement for the installs I'm doing, even the AMX stuff that interfaces is listed for use in those manners.

The Elk RM designer software allows a lot of flexibility in the design of the screens, navicons and really the entire design. It's actually a very robust product.

I wouldn't worry about the wire size, that's why they make spade and ring terminals. The big thing is making sure the relay can handle the amperage or wattage that you are going to draw....Ohm's law. I can't see much of a difference in splitting the transformers via a bus or disto block, but I think putting multiple ones isn't going to be as viable compared to putting a 912 or 924 relay, which will do 10A @ 120V. Easy enough to plug the #'s into an Ohm's law calc.

 

[Photon]

If the lighting can be considered not "mission critical", I'd try controlling the lighting transformer primaries with X-10 appliance modules. I have used them for Christmas lighting for years, and they are nearly 100% reliable. I place several appliance modules outdoors protected by plastic coffee cans with no problems. I have these powered by GFI-protected outlets, so there is some protection if snow or water finds its way inside the containers.

If your transformers are of the plug-in variety, and if the place you plug them in is in a sheltered area such as a garage, appliance modules could be the final solution. However, if they are to be hard wired in an appropriate manner I'd just use the modules for proof of concept and then replace them with one of the X-10 hard-wired devices if the results meet your needs.

I've been very happy with X-10 technology for non-critical applications in a half-dozen houses over 25 years. Our indoor and outdoor lights functin as desired nearly every time. It has fallen out of favor by many, but I'll keep using it because it works for me. If my neighbor gets an arc welder I may need to upgrade to UPB or whatever, but until then I find it to be an inexpensive, reliable solution. The Elk M1 has proven to be a reliable controller, and the only issue I've had is that it doesn't handle dimming lamp modules very well.

 

[tmbrown97]

DEL - I haven't heard from anyone who's used the Elk designer software... sounds like you're happy with it though. Unfortunately they priced it so high and made it harder to get that I think most people just went another direction. Good point on the UL listing; for me, I have the normal keypads around the house; the touchscreen is just an add-on for convenience.

It probably comes down to what the OP wants to accomplish. Spending $1200 on a touchscreen and another $300+ on the rm designer software does seem steep to me. I'd rather spend $99 on Elve Enthusiast and a few hundred bucks on either an all-in-one, a dedicated iPad, or otherwise... and then you get the ability to run more complex rules and automation, and design screens absolutely any way you want them.

I'm not sure why SmartHome is indicating it's being discontinued; I'm pretty sure no matter what there'll always be a comparable option from Elk. Here are two other suppliers who have it:
http://www.homecontrols.com/ELK-Products-LCD-Color-Touchscreen--Monitor-800-x-400-Wide-VGA-7-Inch-ELKTS071
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/s.nl/it.A/id.27487/.f

Photon - as a kid my dad used X10 all the time for the christmas lights and lighting around the house... worked great - but, for some reason, I can't get X10 to even operate two times for me now. I can generally turn a light on but it'll never turn back off. I made the move to UPB instead - costs a whole lot more but it works.