Newbie would appreciate some help with ELK M1

[KidCalledZero]

OK. Some I am getting much closer to understanding the M1 system and greatly appreciate all your help.

Would the 912 or 924 Elk relays be suitable for using outside in a weather proof enclosure? I live in northern California so although it rains in the winter, it doesnt rain in the summer and there is no ice/snow.

Doesnt the M1 have outputs that can trigger the 912/924 relays without an additional power supply?

At the risk of sounding completely ignorant, I am not sure if my transformers are AC or DC. I always assumed they were AC but there is no indication on the transformers or the manufacturers web site. How would this change anything? I will call the manufacturer Monday to find out.

If I dont want to use the M1DBH (I hate crimping RJ45 connectors), I run 4 conductor wire (maybe cat5/6) for the bus? How is it terminated at each end if I dont use RJ45s. Screw terminals? Are those terminals standard on the M1 or do I need to buy a expansion board?

Thanks again.

 

[wuench]

OK. Some I am getting much closer to understanding the M1 system and greatly appreciate all your help.

Would the 912 or 924 Elk relays be suitable for using outside in a weather proof enclosure? I live in northern California so although it rains in the winter, it doesnt rain in the summer and there is no ice/snow.

Doesnt the M1 have outputs that can trigger the 912/924 relays without an additional power supply?

At the risk of sounding completely ignorant, I am not sure if my transformers are AC or DC. I always assumed they were AC but there is no indication on the transformers or the manufacturers web site. How would this change anything? I will call the manufacturer Monday to find out.

If I dont want to use the M1DBH (I hate crimping RJ45 connectors), I run 4 conductor wire (maybe cat5/6) for the bus? How is it terminated at each end if I dont use RJ45s. Screw terminals? Are those terminals standard on the M1 or do I need to buy a expansion board?

Thanks again.

The M1DBHR has screw terminals. Check the elk manuals (on their website) but I am pretty sure the relays will support AC or DC. I would think, if you use a weather-proof enclosure with a gasket and caulk/seal all holes you would be fine.

 

[KidCalledZero]

The M1DBHR has screw terminals. Check the elk manuals (on their website) but I am pretty sure the relays will support AC or DC. I would think, if you use a weather-proof enclosure with a gasket and caulk/seal all holes you would be fine.

So the M1 doesnt have the bus connections? This M1DBHR needs to be purchased in addition to the M1.

I'm starting to put a parts list together.

Thanks.

 

[apostolakisl]

Elk relays are fine with 120v AC or, obviously, smaller loads AC or DC. You just need to check on the max amps. My recollection is that it is something like 10 amps, but it is at least something significant.

 

[KidCalledZero]

Elk relays are fine with 120v AC or, obviously, smaller loads AC or DC. You just need to check on the max amps. My recollection is that it is something like 10 amps, but it is at least something significant.

I will using LED bulbs on all my exterior lights so the wattage will be very low. I don't expect any load issues but will do the calcs before I do the work.

 

[wuench]

So the M1 doesnt have the bus connections? This M1DBHR needs to be purchased in addition to the M1.

I'm starting to put a parts list together.

Thanks.

The elk has one bus connection. If you want to daisy chain the devices you can do that, or break the connections out on your own using terminal strips, etc. The hubs just break them out for you.

 

[KidCalledZero]

The M1DBHR looks like a lot more than just a replacement for terminal strips.

Am I missing something?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

The M1DBHR looks like a lot more than just a replacement for terminal strips.

Am I missing something?

Not sure what you mean. You would wire it something like this...

 

[KidCalledZero]

Thanks for the wiring diagram.

The M1 has one 4 post bus connection and it was mentioned that I could break out the connections on my own with terminal strips which led me to believe I could simply put a terminal strip off each of the terminals on the single bus connection and split it out to multiple areas.

I'm guessing that may not be a correct interpretation given the complexity of the M1DBHR which seems to be a bit more than terminal strips. These individual bus runs appear to require control in the singals I'm guessing.

Now I am throughly confused.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

You can have no more than TWO 'Home Run' from the RS-485 terminal strips on the Elk Data Bus. Most members here have all keypads, expansion boards, etc... wiring home run into a wiring closet where the Elk main unit would also be located, thus needing more than two home runs from the data bus.

Two options exist the Elk with the RJ-45 connections OR the one with 'screw terminals' called the data base hub retrofit (DBHR). Most use the RJ-45 terminations if they have cat5e run to their units, but a lot only have four conductor cable, thus the need for the DBHR (which has 'on board' terminal strips).

FYI, my schematic above should show the two expansion boards coming directly out of the DBHR terminals.

I think you are confusing 'terminal strips' with the ones already provided by the DBHR (this was suggested above as an alternative to the RJ-45 connections, which you stated you did not want to do). Maybe I am not connecting with what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[KidCalledZero]

Understood. The terminal strips led me to believe I could run more than 2 home runs.

If I want to run more than 2 (which I will), I need the M1DBHR.

Is there a strong argument either way regarding Cat5 vs 4-conductor? The 4 conductor would be larger wire, wouldn't it?

As I stated before, I am not a fan of crimping RJ45s. I just dont know if all the connections are good. Is there a tool to check the integrity of my crimping? Without knowing if the connection is good makes for a serious trouble shooting problem.

Thanks.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Well, everyone has their preferred methods, but I'm not a big fan of putting wiring smaller then 22 gauge into a terminal strip. I also perfer stranded over solid, which is why I went with the DBHR.

The RJ-45's though do offer easy removal from the distribution hub, which helps with trouble shooting.

It is all a matter of preference. Others with more experience may chime in with their comments...

 

[tmbrown97]

As I stated before, I am not a fan of crimping RJ45s. I just dont know if all the connections are good. Is there a tool to check the integrity of my crimping? Without knowing if the connection is good makes for a serious trouble shooting problem.

This is indicative of someone who's never experienced good tools. I used to feel the same way until I got a really nice ratcheting tool - it's a crimpmaster from Ideal with the RJ45 die on it; that combined with a good wire stripper... I haven't had one failure with that thing in like 5 years - the only failures I get are if I get the wires mixed up in the plug which is extremely rare.

Either way you go there are specifics to how you handle the RS485 databus. Essentially it's intended to have all the devices daisy chained off each other - with the signal traveling through each device to the next; with a terminator at the end. So generally when running 4 conductor cable, you'd connect each device to the one before it; not home run. Elk came out with the DBHR as a way to allow retrofitting previous alarm system installs where they had 4 conductor already home run. As BSR said - the DBHR lets you basically have more home run cables and handles the termination. With the DBH it's intended that you use Cat5/6 - but it's still respecting RS485 in that it's sending the signal down the green pair and back up the orange pair (for example) where it goes to the next device - this is all handled with how the wire is run (you can't send the signal and receive it back on the same wire - it has to flow - like water flowing through a pipe; not bounce back and forth. I don't know that any one is better/worse - it depends on how you want to do your wire runs. Also as BSR said - it's nice that with a hub you can unplug or disconnect the items, or connect them one at a time to ease troubleshooting.

 

[tmbrown97]

Would the 912 or 924 Elk relays be suitable for using outside in a weather proof enclosure? I live in northern California so although it rains in the winter, it doesnt rain in the summer and there is no ice/snow.

Doesnt the M1 have outputs that can trigger the 912/924 relays without an additional power supply?

At the risk of sounding completely ignorant, I am not sure if my transformers are AC or DC. I always assumed they were AC but there is no indication on the transformers or the manufacturers web site. How would this change anything? I will call the manufacturer Monday to find out.

You can test for AC/DC pretty easily with a meter - doesn't matter too much except for doing your calculations. Most malibu lights are AC that I've seen.

Elk does have the 10 onboard voltage-only outputs - those can directly drive the relays - I recommend the 924 over the 912 to keep overall current draw lower on the M1. Their rated capacities are the same.

There's a part of me that wouldn't be completely comfortable sending the M1's auxiliary power outdoors - I'd be half tempted to double relay - meaning set up an M1XOVR and M1RB - and an external power supply to drive the actual relays that were sitting outside - just paranoia around protecting the M1's electrical system. The other advantage is that you can use higher rated relays outside as well if needed.

 

[Del91574]

It seems like there's a lot of confusion on the bus, the DBHR and how to properly wire the M1 without using a hub. The DBHR allows the bus to be split into 8 terminated branches or basically 8 individual homeruns that only have 4 conductors to them.

The DBHR, as stated, was intended to allow the M1 to be retrofitted into an installation that had only 4 conductors to the keypads or bus devices, which is extremely common with almost all the manufacturers out there presently.

The M1 can be wired without a hub using multiple homeruns of cable, using a minimum of 6 conductors, so a send/return of DATA A & B can be accomplished. If you're intending on using the I/O's of the KP's then you'll need 8 conductors for each keypad, but for each other bus device, only 6. What you don't want to do is daisy chain the power, because of voltage drop.

Plenty of people here seem to have wired their keypads using a category cable, but in my case, I like to run either a 22/8 or 22/10 to the keypads because of the larger size and what it allows me to do at the keypad if needed. I don't necessarily agree with it being easier to troubleshoot because I've found it just as easy, if not easier to use the test points on B-connectors (chicklets), leaving the whole setup connected and metering out as I go for voltage and the terminating resistor(s).

The 912 and 924 are comprable, just the 924 allows a lower current to trigger the coil. The 912 actually draws less overall current than the 924 (two relays drawing current).

The M1RB allows you to take the onboard voltage triggers and convert them to dry contacts, so if you wanted to isolate the panel's power and add a separate power supply, that would be easier and less expensive than an XOVR if you wanted to double relay a 912 or 924 off them.