Newbie would appreciate some help with ELK M1

[Del91574]

DEL - I haven't heard from anyone who's used the Elk designer software... sounds like you're happy with it though. Unfortunately they priced it so high and made it harder to get that I think most people just went another direction. Good point on the UL listing; for me, I have the normal keypads around the house; the touchscreen is just an add-on for convenience.

It probably comes down to what the OP wants to accomplish. Spending $1200 on a touchscreen and another $300+ on the rm designer software does seem steep to me. I'd rather spend $99 on Elve Enthusiast and a few hundred bucks on either an all-in-one, a dedicated iPad, or otherwise... and then you get the ability to run more complex rules and automation, and design screens absolutely any way you want them.

I'm not sure why SmartHome is indicating it's being discontinued; I'm pretty sure no matter what there'll always be a comparable option from Elk. Here are two other suppliers who have it:

I'm lucky in the fact that I get a lot of toys in the toybox as an integrator, license for RM designer and RMS. You can truly change and modify the entire touchscreen, buttons, and entire enviroment using RM designer. Even Elk's demos don't really show all the bells and whistles.

The pricing really isn't that bad, what you're really talking about is full retail that someone's marking up pretty high compared to what the dealer cost is. I honestly think the price you threw out there is what I'd get for one installed. The thing that most people seem to forget is that the Elk touchscreen and software is going head to head (though not apples/apples) to products like AMX and Crestron (I deal with and install both) and their interfaces that do essentially the same thing are 4-8 times the cost. If I'm doing hardcore automation and need a more robust interface, AMX or Crestron it is, getting the feed from the Elk's 232.

I can't comment on the software you're using, because I don't truly need it in my applications, nor am I familiar with the product. As I've said before, what DIY'ers can do with some hardware and software is a lot different than what I can do as a pro, as well as some of the liabilities involved, which is a huge one for me because our systems typically have a lot of life safety devices installed on them. CYOA for us.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

The M1 can be wired without a hub using multiple homeruns of cable, using a minimum of 6 conductors, so a send/return of DATA A & B can be accomplished. If you're intending on using the I/O's of the KP's then you'll need 8 conductors for each keypad, but for each other bus device, only 6.

Though technically you could wire your expansion cards/devices this way, it is a lot easier just to use a data base hub.

The 912 and 924 are comprable, just the 924 allows a lower current to trigger the coil. The 912 actually draws less overall current than the 924 (two relays drawing current).

This is not true. The main difference between the two relays is the 924 requires a lot less of a 'pull in' voltage (five volts compared to nine volts) and there have been reports of problems using the 912 with the Elk voltage outputs.

A lot of these decisions will come with what type of cable(s) you have running outdoors to your wiring closet. For instance, it may be easier to run wiring between the xfrmrs outdoors and have only one run to the outside. Distances between the xfrmrs is also a factor, depending on what method is used.

 

[tmbrown97]

The pricing really isn't that bad, what you're really talking about is full retail that someone's marking up pretty high compared to what the dealer cost is.

You're correct - I posted retail - what most DIYers would be looking at normally; Of course dealer pricing is much better but it's up to the buyer to negotiate that (it would be irresponsible for me to post dealer cost so I always go to the consumer sites and pull pricing). As with many of my opinions or advice, they're geared towards DIYers who are generally looking for cheaper options; People with real money to spend are more likely to be calling someone like you than digging in here.

For the relay, I think BSR covered the specifics; I also recall Elk generally recommending in their posts the use of the 924 because it'll draw less current from the M1 especially if running several. You're correct though that an M1RB is available for the onboard relays; I automatically think about relocating the whole setup closer to the installation rather than crowding it in the main closet (I have it extended to the garage); plus 8 of my onboard voltage outputs piped into an Elk124 for custom sounds inline with the elk speakers.

I'm definitely intrigued by what you'd described with Elk's RM Designer - would you be able to post any screenshots of some of the better screens you've seen/built? I actually use ElkRMS quite a bit so I wouldn't be opposed to going that route if it's really powerful enough.


The nice thing about Elve is that with a single license it supports screens on iPhone, iPad, Mac OSX, and Windows. iPads are a great option for in-wall integration these days so it's nice to be able to design screens compatible with any platform - or at the very least, only have to learn and work with one screen designer for all your devices.

 

[Del91574]

This is not true. The main difference between the two relays is the 924 requires a lot less of a 'pull in' voltage (five volts compared to nine volts) and there have been reports of problems using the 912 with the Elk voltage outputs.

IMHO, the hubs are a waste of real estate in the can as well as money that could be spent elsewhere, especially on a ground up install if proper 485 wiring methods are undertaken from the start, but that has been our experience in putting in both M1G's and EZ8's since '05/06.

I have not heard of or experienced any issues installing either relays on that panel header. For those relays, the trigger input is what varies, which is what I stated, however the huge difference is the 924 draws twice the current, 60mA compared to the 30 of the 912. The only issues I've seen or heard of using relays off the trigger outputs on the entire M1 series is when people attempt to draw too much current off the trigger outputs, exceeding their current listings, which is a system design error.

Really, the best way, if dry relays are needed is to install a M1RB off the panel, unless you are using the audio amp, however the inputs are still available to daisy chain further down, you're just losing a couple for the AA's control. Our experiences have been that the XOVR is a pig when it comes to current draw, 330mA active + up to 400mA on top of that if you're using the voltage triggers and really needs to be looked at hard in the current draw calcs on any system that doesn't have aux power supplies.

In the case of the OP, I think installing relays only at the lighting would be a good solution, and then determine the best way to proceed with the irrigation, but I would not recommend installing any M1 board exposed.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I have not heard of or experienced any issues installing either relays on that panel header. For those relays, the trigger input is what varies, which is what I stated, however the huge difference is the 924 draws twice the current, 60mA compared to the 30 of the 912. The only issues I've seen or heard of using relays off the trigger outputs on the entire M1 series is when people attempt to draw too much current off the trigger outputs, exceeding their current listings, which is a system design error.

Actually, I was getting my information from Elk's Chief Engineer, where he recommends using the 924 over the 912 with the M1!

 

[Del91574]

Actually, I was getting my information from Elk's Chief Engineer, where he recommends using the 924 over the 912 with the M1!

I am not going to doubt information from Spanky, however there were other details involved in the OP's issues, including not using cable with appropriate ampacity and voltage drop due to distance from the panel. I also suspect the poster was exceeding the current rating listed for the triggers. We've never installed 912's anywhere else but in an enclosure at the panel, so that would make voltage drop a moot point for us, as well as when we're looking at anything more than one or two relays, we're looking at a board anyways.

Spanky's last post is extremely relevant, because he cited Ohm's law for the triggers being the issue, more triggers used, more amperage drawn, the lower the voltage output to those triggers.

 

[KidCalledZero]

Just when I thought I was getting close.

Here are a few specifics about my proposed system which I hope will clear things up.

The M1 will be located in the center of the house approximately 40 feet from any exterior wall and garage. The lighting transformers will be installed on the exterior walls and the irrigation control will be located in the garage. Therefore, the runs from the M1 would be no longer than 40 feet for the lighting and irrigation control.

I will be using LED lights primarily on the exterior lighting so I dont expect to exceed 12 amps per relay. In fact, I'm guessing I may be well below 6 amps on each relay. I dont expect any issues there.

I am not sure about voltage drop using the voltage outputs from the M1 to trigger the exterior relays. It seems like the M1 is really not made to power too many relays at any one time with its power supply and I will likely have 30 relays between the lighting and irrigation controls. I dont mind installng a second 12V power supply, locating the first set of relays locally, and runing the new 12V wires out to an exterior box with a second set of relays powered by the new 12V power supply. This would also address the concern of one poster regarding running M1 wires outside the house.

I would also have a stand alone 24V power supply to run the irrigation controls in the garage.

As is usually the case, the system is always a bit more complex than you originally plan. I dont mind that as long as it works.


So I now have a few more questions:

- If I want to use two sets of relays with a second 12V power supply what boards do I need?

- Since I am using a new 12V power supply, does that remove any concerns regarding the 912 vs 924 argument?

- If I wanted to have a single input to the M1 from outside the house that triggered a change in the lighting, is that possible? I am thinking about a momentary push button outside that when press would trigger a change in the lighting (turning certain relays off).

Thanks again.

 

[Del91574]

The refined details sum it up.

You'd be better off installing M1RB's or XOVR's at the panel to switch the trigger inputs for local relays installed at the loads themselves, and disregard using the onboard triggers wired to external relays. You could, for simplicity's sake, install a XOVR in the garage and use the 8 relays to control the irrigation. Isolation between the two systems would be your discretion, but installing the system boards outside wouldn't be recommended. At that point, a second supply installed at the remote XOVR, would be used to trigger 912's or 924's installed at the transformers outside, isolating the panel's power supply, so all you'd need to pull to the switched loads would be a pair to fire the relay that's installed remotely.

In order:

You're looking at XOVR's and if needed, you can bounce M1RB's off them so you have 16 dry contacts in the field rather than buying all XOVR's, which would help keep costs down and wiring logical.

I'm a believer in the PS212S's and the M1 or installing supervised power supplies, based on what I have had happen in installs prior, but YMMV.

Once you go with a system triggered setup compared to the LV triggers, the 912/924 argument is moot.

If you have zone wiring pulled to the location or a remote expander in the same location, you'd be able to do what you're looking for. A nice DPDT toggle would be what I'd be looking at, since you'd be able to have 2 options rather than base an event off (if I read correctly) a momentary button.

 

[KidCalledZero]

So if I want to use isolated relays and I have 30 zones between lighting and irrigation, I would need at least 4 M1RBs and 30 912/924s?

Is there enough room in a 14X14 M1 box for all the M1RBs and future boards or should I go with the 28X14?

What is a PS212S?

In regard to the exterior push button input to alter the lighting relays, I need to have it as a push button because I dont want the switch left in one position that would alter the lighting scheme semi-permanently. I could add a second push button to reverse the logic and then use a timer of some time to reset the relays. I realize this is confusing but we have a hot tub outside that has 3 lighting zones leading to it and/or around it. We need the lighting on to get to the hot tub but once we are in, I want to be able to turn off those three zones. We would then want to turn the lights back on to get back into the house where we could turn all the lights off.

I purchased a water proof 4 channel RF remote for this purpose which I still may use but I was thinking about hard wiring the push buttons adjacent to the tub. Are the hard wired push buttons a hazard around the tub? If so, I will go with the remote.

Thanks

 

[Del91574]

As far as the enclosure, you can comfortably fit 8 input/output boards across the Elk enclosures using the SWG's. The big variable is the wire entry point and space needed for practicality. In your case, since the 912's or 924's are being proposed to be remote, you shouldn't have too much of an issue with space IMHO, without it being overkill.

You'd be able to use any pushbutton wired to the Elk, there's voltage involved, but with a EOLR, you're looking at between 0-14VDC on a zone, with 7VDC being the "secure" value. Weatherproof would be what I'd suggest, but you could use anything in actuality. In this case, it'd really depend on what you're looking at doing vs. asthetics and the specific install.

The PS212S: http://www.elkproducts.com/_webapp_3121928/ELK-P212S_Supervised_Remote_Power_Supply
The only downside is you have to order the transformer and battery for the unit, but it comes with everything else.

We've installed these in remote enclosures with other bus devices in a 14" enclosure multiple times. More expensive than a standalone universal supply, but there's some really nice benefits to the 212S that would've saved me the issues I experienced at the time when the one job I referenced lost the 485 bus.

 

[KidCalledZero]

As far as the enclosure, you can comfortably fit 8 input/output boards across the Elk enclosures using the SWG's. The big variable is the wire entry point and space needed for practicality. In your case, since the 912's or 924's are being proposed to be remote, you shouldn't have too much of an issue with space IMHO, without it being overkill.

You'd be able to use any pushbutton wired to the Elk, there's voltage involved, but with a EOLR, you're looking at between 0-14VDC on a zone, with 7VDC being the "secure" value. Weatherproof would be what I'd suggest, but you could use anything in actuality. In this case, it'd really depend on what you're looking at doing vs. asthetics and the specific install.

The PS212S: http://www.elkproducts.com/_webapp_3121928/ELK-P212S_Supervised_Remote_Power_Supply
The only downside is you have to order the transformer and battery for the unit, but it comes with everything else.

We've installed these in remote enclosures with other bus devices in a 14" enclosure multiple times. More expensive than a standalone universal supply, but there's some really nice benefits to the 212S that would've saved me the issues I experienced at the time when the one job I referenced lost the 485 bus.

How do I add 4 or more M1RBs to a M1? It looks like I need some other adaptor/expander board.

 

[Del91574]

You'd first put in a M1XOVR, that'll give you 8 relays and 8 voltage triggers out of the box. The M1RB plugs into that board and changes the triggers to 8 more relays. For each M1XOVR and M1RB combo you'll get 16 dry contact relays. For your situation, you'd need a pair of each.

 

[KidCalledZero]

I'm ordering my equipment and have a few last minute questions:

Is it possilbe to daisy chain equipment off a M1DBH or can you only daisy chain off a M1DBHR?

At what point do I need to worry about power? Can the M1 power all the equipment that hangs off of it or do I need to consider a power supply like the P412? I was going to buy 3 TRG1640s (one for the M1 panel, one to run power relays outside of the house and one to power a few other products) but that gets kind of messy and I was thinking if I should just bite the bullet and get a P412 to power everything.

Can I provide 12V power to the 485 bus from an independent power supply? Connect the two signal wires and usual to the M1 but dont hook the 12V lines to the M1. Connect them to a separate power supply. Maybe I am just being paranoid but it seems like 1 12V wall wart cant provide all the power this system is going to require.

How many boards can fit in a 14X14 enclosure? My system is going to include the M1G, a Hub (M1DBH or M1DBHR), 2 M1RBs, 1 serial adaptor and 2 M1XOVRs. I also have a telephone/power surge surpressor and ethernet adaptor which can be mounted outside the enclosure. Should I get a 28X14 panel?

Thanks.

 

[tmbrown97]

So just to add some additional points... You mentioned the option of keeping a box in the garage to handle the irrigation - in that particular case, I personally wouldn't double-relay - I'd just use an enclosure in the garage with a coulple M1XOVR's and M1RB's as needed (The M1XOVR has 8 onboard relays and 8 voltage-only outputs - so combining an M1XORV with an M1RB results in 16 full relays).

You're getting to the point where it'd be helpful for us to know how many irrigation controllers you'll have in the garage vs. how many exterior relays would be required to drive your landscape lighting. You're starting to talk about 30 relays... so that could be as simple as 2 M1RB's and 2 M1XOVR's - or it could be that combination with xxx 924's (depending on how many outdoor relays you need for lighting).

Can you run wiring from the garage to the landscape lighting if you were to put all the output expanders there then run the exterior 924's actually outside? That's feeling like the best option to me.

BSR - Nice link - I think that helps a lot - and I know there are more that specify the 924 as being the better option.

 

[KidCalledZero]

I have approximately 18 exterior lighting zones. Those 18 zones are powered by 3 separate transformers located in on three different exterior wall of the house. Each transformer is located approximately 40 feet from the center of the house where the M1 will be located. The zones on the exterior lighting are 6 on the west wall transformer, 7 on the south wall transformer and 5 on the north wall transformer.

The irrigation system will require 10-12 relays and will be located in the garage on the interior wall close (within 15 feet) to the south wall lighting transformer.

I can't run the lighting wiring back to the central location because of voltage drop considerations. The 4 locations (LV Lighting North, South, West and irrigation) each needing between 5 and 12 relays each is why I wanted to double relay and also because I was concerned about having the M1 power as many as 18 relays (all lights on) triggered at one time.

If I dont (double relay) locate the 2 pairs of M1XOVR/M1RB locally (inside the M1 panel) with 912s at each of the 4 locations, I would need 3 (likely 4) M1XOVR/M1RB pairs. 1 pair per location. It just seems cleaner with double relays plus I can use a separate power supply for the triggering the second relays. I realize I still have to trigger the same number of interior relays but the first relays (powered by the M1) will be inches away from the M1 saving voltage drop compared to remote locations.

These numbers are not cast in concrete but are very close at this point in time.

I am open to alternative suggestions.

The cost of 1 12V transforer, 2 M1XOVR/M1RB pairs and 30 912s is about $575 (double relay scenario). The cost of 4 M1XOVR/M1RB pairs is about $700. Isnt the $700 scenario more likely to have relay problems? Previous posts seem to cast some doubt on the ability of the M1RB relays to handle the low voltage lighting task directly. There is also the issue that the single local relay option would require M1XOVR/M1RB pairs to be located outside.

Again, I am a newbie and looking for direction here. I just want to make sure this system works.

Thanks.