Newbie would appreciate some help with ELK M1

[tmbrown97]

OK. For the irrigation, if it's still home-run to one place, I'd personally put an M1XOVR and M1RB in the garage in a can (I used the 28" one that comes with the system) and run the irrigation directly off those relays. In my case I tied in another 12V power source to run everything else and put one of these in to distribute power and protect the circuits... I'd consider that for you too - so that you can use a single power supply to power all your exterior relays but if one of the three "legs" gets shorted, that would isolate it so it doesn't take out the other 2 or anything else running on that power supply.

For the lighting scenario, earlier I was under the impression you only had 3 zones - but this is a lot more complex - so I would definitely go the route of the double relays and do the exterior enclosures with the second set of relays. Sorry if this wasn't clear earlier - I only meant losing the double relays for the irrigation; since your others will be exterior, I'd absolutely double-relay them.

To answer some questions -

1. You can daisy chain in any scenario - even if you do Cat5 with the DBH... the instructions aren't the most intuitive, but if I had a manual in front of me I could describe it.
2. You can use another power supply to power devices on the databus in the manner you described; but a couple of things (please - experts, double-check this) - you should definitely use a battery backup that will run the extension of the databus at least as long as the main controller - losing items on the databus causes all sorts of errors. Also, I believe you want to keep the ground reference the same so you'd want to tie the grounds together on each power supply.

The system has a way to measure the current being drawn at any given time; you can use this to evaluate the system as you increase the load. You'd want to keep in mind a full alarm scenario as the sirens and speakers all at full volume will draw additional load.

Also in an earlier post you asked how much could fit in a 14x14 enclosure - I started with a 28" in my last house with the audio amp (elk 124), ethernet expander, input expander, M1 itself, a DBH and a couple XSP's - and it got full fast. Here's a picture (yeah, I know - a total mess). For my current house I didn't screw around - I went straight for the 50" can directly above an existing 20" so I should hopefully never run out of space. I think the general rule for us DIYers is to go as big as you can. You might be able to make a 14" work but you'd be looking at mounting the boards vertically and keeping the ethernet module elsewhere most likely. Keep in mind - you don't have to go with the Elk can - but with most other can's you'll lose the UL rating if you care unless you use a can that's UL rated for residential security and use the specific odd bracket that they evaluated; though I think most of us just drill screw holes in the new can to fit.

 

[KidCalledZero]

Thanks for the response and answers.

All the wires for the irrigation come into the house at the same 3 locations where the lighting wires do. Therefore, I may not brink all the irrigation wires to the garage and simply handle them the same way as the lighting.

I will read up on the separate power supply for the bus and the power distribution module looks like the way to go.

Elk makes a supervised power distribution unit with battery backup that should work for the independent bus power. Given the critical nature of the that power supply, the supervised board will allow me to more closely monitor that power.

I havent seen many photographs of Elk panels but all the ones I have seen, including yours, do not use the slide mounts for the boards. It would seem that would allow for 5 times the number of boards in a panel. Is there a reason nobody uses them?

Thanks.

 

[Del91574]

8 boards can go across the enclosure, depending on the amount of wiring space needed. The Elk enclosures are drilled and tapped so you can install all of their boards using SWG's if you want, including the XEP and XSP's.

Use the SWG's that come with the hardware rather than lay them down like Work's, makes it a lot easier to install and get up and running. Very logical in how it all goes together. Here's an example of one, not pretty since the install was set up for different enclosures and another manufacturer. This is mid-rewire: http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/delinstallation/IMG_20101215_153801.jpg

That panel is running 64 zones, a XEP, and XSP, a M1RB, and 4(!) hubs on top of the other equipment in the enclosures.

 

[tmbrown97]

To be honest, I don't know why most of us do it that way - in a professionally installed package I'd use the slides because I'd be installing them in a box that I don't want the homeowner screwing with really. For some reason in DIY we want to see it all that much more - maybe it's because we're always in there screwing around with things - but yes it wastes a whole lot of space - so we get larger enclosures. A lot of DIYers also have extra termination and cross-connection points that I don't really understand either.

I think the difference is for homeowners/DIYers it's rarely a situation where you install everything at once then close it up and lock the door... most of the time we're constantly adding/changing so it seems easier to be able to see the board and look at the markings to clearly see which zone is which, etc. - someone who works with these things every day probably has the boards memorized and can do all the prep work and installation work at once.

 

[Del91574]

A lot of these end up getting modified and changed almost as much as the tinkerers out there. I still find myself looking at the docs and markings, but those slides make it easy to pull the board out to look at, on top of the terminal blocks, very logical and makes it easy to "prewire" the entire unit or even remove it.

In that one I pictured, that bundle almost eats up the whole entire knockout at the top, with a grommet installed. I lost the space for the board immediately next to the side of the can because of the size of the bundle and slack involved. Biggest mistakes I see are not leaving slack inside the can and trying to pull things tight or "neater" assuming all of this is "permanent" wiring, when it's always evolving or could be relocated or replaced.

 

[KidCalledZero]

Wow!

Up until this moment I was planning on putting the M1 in a closet in the center of our house. I can fit a 28X14 enclosure in that closet along with some external components. After looking at these photos I am starting to think that 14X18 isnt going to cut it and I would need the entire closet to house potential expansions. The WAF issues are off the charts here.

For now I am going to stick with a 28X14 in the closet. If I need more room for expansion, I will worry about that later.

Anybody else care to chime in on the independent power supply issue for the 485 bus?

Thanks.

 

[tmbrown97]

Don't think about taking the whole closet - then you have to think about cooling issues, running large volumes of wires in there, IR network, etc... It'll make your head spin and you'll have to buy all that equipment to fill it up. But, reserve the space - fill it up with stuff only you use so your wife isn't even used to having/using that closet - so when you take it over, you're only displacing your stuff - she shouldn't notice the difference

 

[Del91574]

My preference:

Security and related connections get their own enclosure. All other structured systems, such as IR, intercom, TCP/IP, Telco, coax, etc. should have their own separate enclosure.

 

[tmbrown97]

:hesaid:
Though I may not 100% follow that due to my configuration, it'll be pretty close.

 

[Photon]

A lot of DIYers also have extra termination and cross-connection points that I don't really understand either.

I suppose that if the Elk engineers thought there should be intermediate termination points, they would sell a UL-approved product with which to do it. It really makes more sense to run the zone wire pairs, or whatever, directly to the appropriate Elk board since that eliminates a couple potential points of failure for each zone.

On the other hand, I think us DIYers make decisions based on our own background and needs. After years in my second career in IT support involving maintaining voice and data low voltage distributions systems for hundreds of users scattered over a few states, It was natural for me to decide to mount my toys on a backboard and terminate all the house lines on punch-down blocks. I have a couple thousand sq ft of unfinished basement, so I easily found a safe, secure place to mount my 4'x4' piece of plywood with wire shelf for small network components and the adjacent rack for larger devices. I like the easy troubleshooting enabled by the jumper clips on the 66-blocks I used to terminate most of the house wiring. I don't even use a central monitoring station; I rely on the Elk to call our cell phones and send email if there is an alarm or trouble condition. As a DIYer, I also made decisions that make the security system more likely to be used. The pros on this forum cringe when I've mentioned we usually use fobs to arm and disarm the system, but I find my wife doesn't care if it is armed if she is out of the house. She is much more likely to arm the system if she can do it from the driveway with her fob. Just some examples of why a DIYer makes different decisions than pros.

 

[ddennerline]

I would highly recommend installing the largest structure media box possible – even if you had to find a different location. If house is two stories, then there’s usually a load bearing wall near the stairs that run from bottom floor to top of house (attic). You will want to put it somewhere that’s accessible.

I wasted lots of time re-installing equipment because I quickly ran out of space and had to move everything to new box. I now have two 42” SMBs. As DEL mentioned, one is for alarm/security and the other is for networking/multi-media. I am nearly out of space in alarm/security 42” box. Because 42” SMB is so large, I have plenty of room in the box to rework layout or use Elk SWP’s. With a small box, once you run out of real-estate, reconfiguring wiring and boards becomes much more challenging.