Omnipro II and Gas Sensors

[mattbuff5]

I have 5 Costar 12-25SIR gas sensors. Apparently they haven't been working integrated with the Omnipro, just individually.

I can't get them to work properly with Omnipro.

This is what I have:
Gas Sensors are wired daisy chained in a Normally Open configuration.

They are connected to Omnipro Zone 3. I have zone jumper set to SMK. Zone type is set to GAS.

Gas zone shows trouble all the time.

If I wire them in a normally closed configuration and change jumper to normal, set zone type to Auxiliary the zone will show secure.

What am I doing wrong that it won't work as a gas zone setup?

 

[Anthony A.]

Have you tried a single sensor wired to the panel and set to GAS?

 

[mattbuff5]

So I isolated down to a single CO2 sensor.  I tested in revery configuration between the three variables (Jumper(SMK-NRM), Zone Type(AUX-Gas), Wiring(NC-NO), here are my testing results:

Wiring     ZoneType     Jumper     Result
NO           GAS               SMK           Trouble
NO           GAS               NRM           Not Ready
NO           AUX               SMK           Not Ready
NO           AUX               NRM          Not Ready
NC           GAS               SMK            Trouble
NC           GAS               NRM           Not Ready
NC           AUX               SMK           Not Ready
NC           AUX               NRM          SECURE
 
This makes no sense to me. 
Here is my understanding of the various setups - The Zone Jumper between NRM - and Smoke basically determines whether the zone is read as a NO or NC zone type, with NRM = NC and SMK = NO.  So for example is the Zone type is GAS and the jumper is smoke for the zone to be secure the Zone should be Open.
 
If my understanding is correct, then my results don't make any sense.
 
Any suggestions?

 

[Del91574]

Age of the detector? Could be an end of life indication or bad unit. You are sure it's a CO and not a CO2 sensor?
 
Have you metered out the suspect detector's relay for proper operation?
 
Do you have the detectors wired properly? If you're wiring on a single zone, the first detector gets 4 conductors and each subsequent detector gets 6...then you also need to wire the trouble relay into the loop.
 
Their documentation is incorrect in how these units are supposed to be wired and be compliant, but the manufacturer's page is even more scary!

 

[mattbuff5]

Age of the detector? Could be an end of life indication or bad unit. You are sure it's a CO and not a CO2 sensor?
Less then 1 year old.  All date stickers are well into the future.  It is CO2.

Have you metered out the suspect detector's relay for proper operation?
No I have not.
 
 
Do you have the detectors wired properly? If you're wiring on a single zone, the first detector gets 4 conductors and each subsequent detector gets 6...then you also need to wire the trouble relay into the loop.
This sounds like how I have it wired.  I am a single zone.  First detector has (+), (-), Alarm (C, NO), Trouble (C,NC).  Note, that I do not currenlty have the Trouble zone connected to my panel yet. The second detector has (+)*2, (-)*2, Alarm (C, NO), Trouble (C,NC). The final zone has a 1k resistor at the C as well.  However, during my testing, I wired a single detector directly to panel. with the various configurations including the 1k resistor. I had a single 22/4 wire going from panel to co2 sensor connectiong + to +, - to -, and C and NC to Zone 3.

Their documentation is incorrect in how these units are supposed to be wired and be compliant, but the manufacturer's page is even more scary!

 
 
Should I be using Omnipro II Switched power?  I currently have them power off of an external wall wart.

 

[Ernie]

Just going to throw this out there, but have you tried movinng the wiring to Zone 4 or higher?  If no, why not try that and see if that resolves the problem.

 

[Ernie]

My bad - try zone 5 or higher.  Essewntially, any zone on an Omni Pro II can support fire devices.  With that said, only zones 1-4 can support 2-wire fire devices, whaereas any other zone on the contoller (5 - 176) will support 4-wire fire devices.
 
When using zones 1-4,, whether using 2 or 4 wire fire devices, the initiating loop wiring is wired as:
 
1. One conductor connected to the zone "+".
2. The remaining conductor goes to 12VDC Switched "+".
 
Also, if the device is polarity sensitive, the "+" conductor goes to the zone "+" and the "-" goes to the Switched 12VDC "+".

 

[Del91574]

Shaking head.
 
Wall wart?
 
CO2?
 
Investigate your installation. Frankly it scares me based on what you've posted so far. No supervision, no trouble relay, no backup power to units.

 

[mattbuff5]

Shaking head.
 
Wall wart?
 
CO2?
 
Investigate your installation. Frankly it scares me based on what you've posted so far. No supervision, no trouble relay, no backup power to units.

Its temporary solutions while I figure out the proper wiring to integrate with the HAI.  I have a whole home generator, not concerned about other forms of backup power.
 
As I can't get the CO signal to operate properly, currently I'm not concerned about the the trouble relay.
 
Remember, as I type this, I still have 5 fully functioning independant CO sensors in my house.  I would bet that is better than 99.99% or homes across America - I'm not conncerned.
 
I noticed you previously asked if I was sure it was a CO, sensor.  Yes, it is a CO sensor as originally stated and incorrectly abbreviated on my last post.
 
What do you see wrong in the Costar wiring instructions? I'm using Costar's diagram located here - http://qginc.com/sites/default/files/12-24SIR_User_Manual.pdf

 

[mattbuff5]

My bad - try zone 5 or higher.  Essewntially, any zone on an Omni Pro II can support fire devices.  With that said, only zones 1-4 can support 2-wire fire devices, whaereas any other zone on the contoller (5 - 176) will support 4-wire fire devices.
 
When using zones 1-4,, whether using 2 or 4 wire fire devices, the initiating loop wiring is wired as:
 
1. One conductor connected to the zone "+".
2. The remaining conductor goes to 12VDC Switched "+".
 
Also, if the device is polarity sensitive, the "+" conductor goes to the zone "+" and the "-" goes to the Switched 12VDC "+".

So right now the 12-24SIR gas sensor I'm using allows for a common and normally open wire. So I have each of those wired into my zone (3).  I don't see how what your suggesting with the two-wire setup would work for my situation, so I will definitely try a zone != 1-4
Thanks

 

[mattbuff5]

Lajaycee -
 
I think you opened my eyes to my errors.  I will try in the morning.  I believe I understand you now and how to wire after applying your feedback to page 8 of the onmiproii installation manual. 
 
One quick question... The diagram just show two zone wiring ports on the devices in the example.  On my gas devices' C and NO ports, which should I wire to the OPII witched + and which to the Zone +?
 
DEL - I think your comment on Costar's diagram being incorrect alluded to this point as well.  Thanks.

 

[Ernie]

If the detectors' C and NO terminals are not labeled with a (+) or (-), then they probably are not polarity sensitive, in which case, it doesn't matter which terminal is connected to the zone "+" or Switched 12VDC "+".  If there is a +/- reference, the "+" should go to zone "+" and the "-" should go to Switched 12VDC.
 
If my suggestion does not appear to help, and you feel your wiring and configuration are correct, what I would suggest is a test:
 

1. Remove the wiring from Zone 3.
2. Connect one end of a 1K, 1/2 watt resistor to Zone 3 "+".
3. Connect the other end of the resistor to the Switched 12VDC terminal.
4. Use a console (Status>>Test>>Zone 3 =)or the Status>>Zones menu of PC Access to observe the "loop" reading of Zone 3.  The value should read between 26-43 (usually right around 34).  If you do not see such a reading, stop here and double/triple check your configuration as something is definetly not correct - jumper is not in correct position or zone type.
5. Assuming the loop reading is correct, you can test the loop now by using a short piece of wire to short across Zone 3 "+" and Switched 12VDC "+" - this will simlate the loop going into an alarm.  WIthout knowing more about the setup you have already performed, the shorting may or may not produce an alarm.  By default, the controller is designed to "Verify Fire Alarms" - if this setting has not been changed, the first shorting will not produce an alarm.  In this case, remove the short, leaving the resistor in place, wait a full 20 seconds, and then short again - this should produce an alarm.

Assuming the test works, you will know that the controller is configured properly, and that any problems reside in your device wiring.

 

[neillt]

Should I be using Omnipro II Switched power?  I currently have them power off of an external wall wart.

 
Yes, I am surprised no one has mentioned this.  The OPII will cycle the power to the switched output as a test of the loop.  
 
If the panel cycles the power and does not see the changes it is expecting, it throws a trouble.