questions from a upb noob

[js19707]

I'm just starting out with my first home automation projects: structured wiring and lighting (retrofit into an existing house). i don't have a lot of experience doing electrical work. i bought a pcs starter kit this wknd so i could try it out.

I believe at this point I've settled on UPB as the lighting technology i will use. i intend to replace ~30 existing switches, mostly incandescent and mostly dimmers. some are 3-way switches.

here are my questions:

what brand: pcs, hai, or sai?

- i've read that gen2 switches are preferred for noise immunity and smaller delay. i've also read that sai switches w/ recent firmware can also have a smaller delay. is the delay in the (suitably configured) newer sai switches comparable to that on the pcs and hai gen 2 switches? any word on whether sai is coming out with gen2 switches?

- the thing i like about the sai switches is that they have a load-bearing multi-scene controller. as i'm doing a retrofit, i don't have room in existing J-boxes so I don't want to waste a gang on something that isn't carrying a load. if i don't go with sai, what are my options: can i turn a 3-way switch into a 2-way switch and, instead of using a slave, put a pcs or hai multiscene controller in its place? do the other guys (hai, pcs) plan on releasing a load-bearing scene controller?

- i was told by the guy who sold me that the sai swtiches don't report back their status but the pcs and hai switches do. but i haven't been able to find any confirmation of this while researching online. can someone confirm/deny that sai switches are functionally different than the pcs and hai ones?

- are there any issues w/ using a mix of pcs, hai, and or sai switches? i surmise the basic functionality works. how noticeable are the cosmetic differences?

phase couplers and surge suppression

- i have the phase coupler that came in my pcs starter kit (PPC1). looking online, i see the sai starter kits advertise a phase coupler that goes in the breaker panel and appears to take the place of a 220v breaker. this seems like it would be a nice clean install. what do people do with the pcs phase coupler: do you put it in its own box, or do you find a way to put it in the breaker panel somehow?

- are there any issues w/ making upb work behind surge suppressors? do installers typically use whole-house surge suppression and avoid using surge suppression strips?

interface module and automation/security controllers

- i'm planning to add a security/automation panel like the elk m1g or hai op2, and leaning toward the elk. are there any issues w/ elk's support of upb or any reason why hai op2 + hai switches is an easier combo to install/use?

- what do i need to interface the elk with upb? is the PIM-R (RS232 version) sufficient, or is the usb version preferable?

.. anything else i should know about?

 

[MikeB]

what brand: pcs, hai, or sai?

I personally like the feel of PCS and SAI switches, but a lot of it is personal preference. If you can, try to check them out first-hand to decide for yourself. If I were doing a new install, I'd probably go with gen 2 to help avoid potential noise issues.

the thing i like about the sai switches is that they have a load-bearing multi-scene controller.

One of the great things about UPB is that you can mix and match. If you prefer SAI's scene controller, there's no reason you can't go with it but still use PCS or HAI for other devices.

that the sai swtiches don't report back their status but the pcs and hai switches do.

I'm fairly new to UPB, but I haven't heard anything like that.

 

[Techvet]

UPB is a good choice. I had X-10 in my previous HA project and it had more than just a few issues. Our current home is 100% UPB and it has been problem free and 100% reliable. I have 31 devices in my UPB network,so our installs are probably similar.

I looked at all the manufacturers on the front end and decided to use SA hardware in my project. The pricing is good and the quality is excellent. I've called SA Tech Support on a couple of occasions and I've found them to be very supportive as well.

You will eventually hear of GEN1 and GEN 2 devices (MikeB mentioned this.) SA is 100% GEN1 UPB, while HAL and PCS are now GEN2 UPB. I'll leave it to others to discuss the technical differences, but the bottom line is the GEN2 devices tolerate line noise better than GEN1. I don't have any line noise so the GEN1 products are fine for me. I spoke with SA Tech Support about this last week and they noted that the bulk of the line noise problems tend to come from certain brands of low voltage lighting transformers. I don't use these in my home and SA notes that their products can usually be made to work in any home (line noise or not) with a few tweaks.

The UPB delay is noticeable. I use 100% CFLs in my house, so the delays are longer still. However my family has acclimated well and doesn't seem to mind. Using the SNAP setting when you do your UPStart programming will reduce it to its lowest possible level. Because of the CFLs, I don’t have any dims enabled, so SNAP works fine for me. FWIW, I'm using SA US11-30 switches everywhere in my house. These were discontinued last year, so I've been buying all I can at what amounts to fire sale prices. The new SA US11-40 and US2-40 switches have configurable delay rates in UPStart.

SA switches DO report their status and this is a configurable option in UPStart. Note this only happens when the switch is pressed and they don't report status when activated via a LINK command. I don't think that any brand of switches reports status in response to LINK commands, but I could be wrong there.

I don't have any multi-button controllers in my home (US11-30 switches don't support the multi-button keypad faceplates), so I can't comment in regards to your scenn control question. However, the load controlling US2-40s are very flexible so I assume just about anything is possible. Mixing brands is okay as long as individual circuits stay "branded" (e.g. no SA master with a PCS slave.)

My install is new (>3 months old) and is in new construction. At first I did not think I'd need a phase coupler. However, I eventually noticed one circuit with an intermittent failure. I checked the signals and noted that this particular circuit had very low signals. Turns out it was on the opposite phase of the controller, in a separate 200A panel (I have 2 in my home) and at the far end of the house. I purchased the SA breaker panel phase coupler you described and found that it would not fit my panel. There are two 'styles' of Culter-Hammer panels and it would not fit mine (CF style). So I exchanged it for a wired in module and attached it to the side of my panel with a metal box. That fixed all of the problems and now my signals are at the top of the chart in all areas.

I do have a HA controller, but it is not an ELK, so I'll leave it for others to comment about ELK/UPB integration. I have a RCS HA controller and I found the integration there to be very easy and straightforward. There were a few issues initially, but I was able to work around those and RCS Tech Support has been stellar in assisting. Overall I'd give the RCS/UPB integration a 9.5 out of 10 and expect it to be 10 0f 10 when the final minor issue is resolved.

 

[Steve]

First, Welcome to CocoonTech! My replies are in your msg below in green.

I'm just starting out with my first home automation projects: structured wiring and lighting (retrofit into an existing house). i don't have a lot of experience doing electrical work. i bought a pcs starter kit this wknd so i could try it out.

I believe at this point I've settled on UPB as the lighting technology i will use. i intend to replace ~30 existing switches, mostly incandescent and mostly dimmers. some are 3-way switches.

here are my questions:

what brand: pcs, hai, or sai?

- i've read that gen2 switches are preferred for noise immunity and smaller delay. i've also read that sai switches w/ recent firmware can also have a smaller delay. is the delay in the (suitably configured) newer sai switches comparable to that on the pcs and hai gen 2 switches? any word on whether sai is coming out with gen2 switches?
First, Gen 1 and Gen 2 are a bit confusing. The original UPB switches by all manufactures didn't really have a Gen. PCS created the term 'Gen 2' to relate to a new firmware update/feature set. SAI did not participate directly in that, therefore they do no say Gen 2, but technically they are not Gen 1. Perhaps that's a bit of hair splitting, but there really is no such thing as Gen 1, it was made up to refer to original switches. (I can see peoples eyes rolling now). Anyway, Gen II refers to a new firmware/feature set. The main thing that it includes are settings to allow the switches to better tolerate noise. The switches can be set to a high or low sensitivity. There were also some behind the scenes tweaks that should help in noisy environments. PCS also added new features such as timed off, blink link, top rocker max out, quick tap (the delay), manual setup, tap transmit only and a blue/red LED. This is really where there becomes confusion in the Generations and I prefer to think of Gen II primarily for better noise immunity. The reason is that SAI has several of these other features (and in fact did before PCS coined Gen II). For example, the delay in SAI switches are adjustable so they can be set to accommodate the user. After all, some people are slow tappers and some are faster. PCS delay is fixed at the low delay side but could be an issue with slow tappers wanting a separate feature on a double tap. The lowest delay I believe is 300 or 350ms which is down from the original 750ms. SAI has stated they have no intent of adopting 'Gen II' and they feel they can achieve the same results with filters and other tweaks.

- the thing i like about the sai switches is that they have a load-bearing multi-scene controller. as i'm doing a retrofit, i don't have room in existing J-boxes so I don't want to waste a gang on something that isn't carrying a load. if i don't go with sai, what are my options: can i turn a 3-way switch into a 2-way switch and, instead of using a slave, put a pcs or hai multiscene controller in its place? do the other guys (hai, pcs) plan on releasing a load-bearing scene controller?
Well, yes and no. The US240 is a load bearing switch that supports multiple faceplates. Some of those faceplates are multibutton which in essence makes them a 'scene controller' as you say. But the huge negative is that the buttons are not backlit. The HAI and PCS dedicated multibutton controllers all have backlit buttons which most people want. Yes, you can do as you describe if you wire the 'secondary' location as a regular switch, ie having a normal line, neutral and ground.

- i was told by the guy who sold me that the sai swtiches don't report back their status but the pcs and hai switches do. but i haven't been able to find any confirmation of this while researching online. can someone confirm/deny that sai switches are functionally different than the pcs and hai ones?
As stated, that is configurable in the SAI.

- are there any issues w/ using a mix of pcs, hai, and or sai switches? i surmise the basic functionality works. how noticeable are the cosmetic differences?
No problems at all and several people have hybrid systems if for no other reason than to have backlit scene controllers with SAI switches, or having a few specialty switches with an HAI or PCS install. But yes, there is a pretty big cosmetic difference in the SAI vs HAI/PCS switch. SAI uses a wide clear plastic piece that serves as both the LED and air gap switch. Both HAI and PCS switches use a smaller (and imho brighter (almost too bright sometimes)) LED. Is is also behind a small light pipe, but is is smaller and integrated into the bezel of the switch better since it is not also an air gap switch. I think the PCS and SAI switches have the most distinct click where HAI is a bit mushier, but not still a decent feel. So... I think a PCS and HAI switch in the same gang box would look ok, but mixing HAI or PCS with SAI would look a bit worse. The blue backlit multibutton controller from HAI or PCS will blend fine with and of the mfg switches.

phase couplers and surge suppression

- i have the phase coupler that came in my pcs starter kit (PPC1). looking online, i see the sai starter kits advertise a phase coupler that goes in the breaker panel and appears to take the place of a 220v breaker. this seems like it would be a nice clean install. what do people do with the pcs phase coupler: do you put it in its own box, or do you find a way to put it in the breaker panel somehow?
I don't have a phase coupler installed, but I would follow the mfg instructions. I don't believe any of the wire in couplers should be in the panel itself, but rather a separate gang box attached to the panel. My panel is full and recessed in the wall - probably one of the reasons I have not bothered with trying to incorporate a couple yet. There is also a plug in coupler that goes in the dryer outlet if ease of install is the most important issue.

- are there any issues w/ making upb work behind surge suppressors? do installers typically use whole-house surge suppression and avoid using surge suppression strips?
Not that I know of, but a whole home suppressor is always a good thing. I like these guys for a whole house unit. I have talked to them a few times at Ehx and will be getting one from them.

interface module and automation/security controllers

- i'm planning to add a security/automation panel like the elk m1g or hai op2, and leaning toward the elk. are there any issues w/ elk's support of upb or any reason why hai op2 + hai switches is an easier combo to install/use?
None that I know of. UPB works great with either.

- what do i need to interface the elk with upb? is the PIM-R (RS232 version) sufficient, or is the usb version preferable?
Yes, you need the serial PIM and will need an M1XSP serial expander for the Elk. You will need to make sure the M1XSP firmware is the latest since it was changed to support the new PCS PIM. The new PCS PIM will not work with older XSP firmware. But as you probably know, that's a simply firmware flash.

.. anything else i should know about?
If you are concerned about look feel, etc. I always recommend people to but a switch of each mfg from Automated Outlet. When you decide what brand you want to go with, AO will take the other switches back and credit toward your new purchases. They also always have the best prices (or will meet or beat another competitive price). They also have top notch tech support and will answer your questions promptly and correctly before and after the sale. I bring this up because it sounds like you did not get an entirely accurate answer from your original place.

 

[bfisher]

Lots of great replies here, so I won't repeat any of them.

I just want to add that the plug-in phase coupler works great as well. It plugs into your dryer wall-plug, and then your dryer plugs into it. 30 second installation, and is still hidden.

Only negative I have with it is when there is a UPB switch on dimmed - the coupler hums. Not a big deal, but I was concerned there was something wrong initially.

 

[bmil]

A quick note of interest.. Had my first UPB experience recently using an S/A Advanced Starter Kit with the phase coupler that replaces a dual breaker. Had a lot of comm problems with 2 switches on circuits in the adjacent sub-panel.

Replaced the S/A coupler with the HAI one that attached to 2 breakers in the same position as the S/A one. The HAI one was far superior in this install and now no problems with those other switches. Ran into a few others who also found the HAI and PCS couplers to be much better in their particular installs than the S/A ones.

Also, there are stilll a lot of PCS Gen I stock out there (particularly in non-white) that some dealers will ship out if they can. Avoid the return hassle and specify GEN 2 on your PCS orders.

 

[webmtn]

Several comments on the original questions:

As stated in an earlier reply, Gen2 refers to an enhanced noise handling capability of the device firmware. Where it gets confused is that PCS and HAI introduced some new features at the same time that they incorporated the new noise core. For example, the adjust delay response. SAI has this too, even though they don't have the new Gen2 core. As long as you don't have any noise on your circuits, the original devices (coined Gen1) will work just fine. However, we have run into several situations where the devices were initially installed and there was no noise, but some time later, some new appliance or device was introduced into the home which generates noise, and starts causing reliability issues. Even though you can most of the time determine what the offending device or circuit is, you still have to apply some kind of filtering or intervention. Our experience is that the new noise core of Gen2 dramatically improves performance in the presence of noise.

You can certainly mix and match devices from the various manufacturers and they will operate just fine. One thing to worry about is using HAI / PCS with SAI switches - they have different LED colors. The original PCS switches had red / green LEDs, HAI's are Red / Blue, and SAI is Blue / green. PCS changed theirs when they went to the Gen2 release to go with red / blue, like HAI. Remember that you can program very different LED operation depending upon your desires. One way to resolve this would be to program all the devices for their LED to be OFF when OFF and Blue when ON. All of the manufacturers devices should be able to do this.

One of my suggestions to "retrofitters" is that a 3 way circuit is a great opportunity to install a multi-button controller, especially a non-load controllable multibutton. You will have to rewire the travelers in the circuit so that you get power and neutral to the end box, but remember that a transmitter only needs two wires - power and neutral. If you're confused about this, respond and I can provide you with more details on how to do this.

The SAI devices can be programmed to send a status report "upon a rocker press". Therefore, if someone walks up and turns on the switch manually, it can be programmed to send a status report that an intelligent controller would use to keep track of status. The SAI units actually have the advantage of being able to send both a Command and a status report upon a rocker press - earlier PCS units could not do both - you had to pick one or the other. I need to see if this has been changed. Another issue related to this is that UPB devices will not send a status message if they are activated from a link command. The reason for this is that you could generate lots of powerline traffic if all devices responded in this manner. For example, by default, most devices have Link 1 in their RCV tables to easily create an ALL ON link. If a LInk 1 Activate were sent and all devices responded with a status report, you could have a couple of hundred status reports trying to be generated at the same time. Several of the inteligent controllers get around this by knowing what devices are controlled by a link and then making an assumption that all the devices responded.

By code, a wired in phase coupler is supposed to be installed in its own box near the breaker box. However, most of the time when I've seen an electrician install one, they just mount it inside the breaker box and just squeeze it in. They will first put in a small length of 12 gauge romex to the two gang breaker, then wirenut the phase coupler to the ends of the romex wires. The phase coupler pigtails are normally stranded, smaller gauge wires, which should not be inserted into the breaker's terminals.

There are actually two technologies for UPB phase couplers. The original phase couplers from all of the vendors can basically be described as just a capacitor across the two phases. However, SAI came out with a different technology in their phase couplers that they call Inverting phase couplers. I won't go into the technical differences, but recently, in our testing, we've been struggling to prove that the inverting style works as well as the original, non-invertng style. SAI continues to support the inverting style, and I very much respect their technical abilities, but we're concerned enough that we are going to start only pushing the non-inverting style. Don't let me talk you out of the inverting style if you believe in them, and we have heard of people who have used them and seen performance gains, but in our testing, the non-inverting style seems to have better performance.

There have been a couple of comments about using the dryer style plugin phase couplers. While these can be extremely simple to install, depending upon how far your laundry room is from the breaker box, you can have wildly varying results. Phase couplers work best when installed as close to the main breaker box as possible. The further you move it from the breaker box, the less improvement you will see.

Also, when installing an intelligent controller, I always recommend to try to mount the PIM for the controller as close to the main breaker box as possible. This will help you get as high a signal strength as possible.

Just more food for thought..........

 

[js19707]

Wow, there's a lot of great replies here, thanks everyone for the quick response!

Let's see, to sum up (feel free to correct/chide if i got this wrong):

- HAI and PCS switches are (noticeably) different in appearance from the SAI switches, but the LEDs can be programmed such that they're just blue/black. SAI multibutton faceplates are not backlit, which may also factor into buying decisions.

- noise immunity in GEN 2 switches is a worthwhile feature that isn't available in the SAI switches, so users of SAI switches must track down sources of noise and attempt to filter if they encounter problems.

- delay is configurable in newer GEN 1 SAI switches as well as GEN 2 HAI and PCS switches.

- there is no truth to the "SAI switches don't report status" assertion, at least nothing that would distinguish them from PCS or HAI switches (none report status in response to a LINK command). in fact, SAI switches can send both a command and a status in response to a rocker press.. and PCS and HAI switches cannot?

- as far as breaker couplers go, the HAI ones seem preferable to the SAI ones.

- wire-in couplers are supposed to go in a separate box by code, though some electricians may squeeze them into the same box with the breakers.

- SAI uses inverting couplers, which appear to yield mixed results. HAI and PCS use non-inverting phase couplers.

Did I get this all right?

 

[js19707]

Steve: thanks for the welcome, and the pointers for ELK and surge suppression info. much appreciated!

As far as the dryer outlet coupler goes, I don't have an electric hookup there (gas only). i'm guessing i've got another suitable connection in the kitchen (though the stove is gas), but i'd rather just get an electrician out to do the coupler at the same time as the surge suppression install. any idea what a reasonable install charge would be?

First, Welcome to CocoonTech! My replies are in your msg below in green.

I'm just starting out with my first home automation projects: structured wiring and lighting (retrofit into an existing house). i don't have a lot of experience doing electrical work. i bought a pcs starter kit this wknd so i could try it out.

I believe at this point I've settled on UPB as the lighting technology i will use. i intend to replace ~30 existing switches, mostly incandescent and mostly dimmers. some are 3-way switches.

here are my questions:

what brand: pcs, hai, or sai?

- i've read that gen2 switches are preferred for noise immunity and smaller delay. i've also read that sai switches w/ recent firmware can also have a smaller delay. is the delay in the (suitably configured) newer sai switches comparable to that on the pcs and hai gen 2 switches? any word on whether sai is coming out with gen2 switches?
First, Gen 1 and Gen 2 are a bit confusing. The original UPB switches by all manufactures didn't really have a Gen. PCS created the term 'Gen 2' to relate to a new firmware update/feature set. SAI did not participate directly in that, therefore they do no say Gen 2, but technically they are not Gen 1. Perhaps that's a bit of hair splitting, but there really is no such thing as Gen 1, it was made up to refer to original switches. (I can see peoples eyes rolling now). Anyway, Gen II refers to a new firmware/feature set. The main thing that it includes are settings to allow the switches to better tolerate noise. The switches can be set to a high or low sensitivity. There were also some behind the scenes tweaks that should help in noisy environments. PCS also added new features such as timed off, blink link, top rocker max out, quick tap (the delay), manual setup, tap transmit only and a blue/red LED. This is really where there becomes confusion in the Generations and I prefer to think of Gen II primarily for better noise immunity. The reason is that SAI has several of these other features (and in fact did before PCS coined Gen II). For example, the delay in SAI switches are adjustable so they can be set to accommodate the user. After all, some people are slow tappers and some are faster. PCS delay is fixed at the low delay side but could be an issue with slow tappers wanting a separate feature on a double tap. The lowest delay I believe is 300 or 350ms which is down from the original 750ms. SAI has stated they have no intent of adopting 'Gen II' and they feel they can achieve the same results with filters and other tweaks.

- the thing i like about the sai switches is that they have a load-bearing multi-scene controller. as i'm doing a retrofit, i don't have room in existing J-boxes so I don't want to waste a gang on something that isn't carrying a load. if i don't go with sai, what are my options: can i turn a 3-way switch into a 2-way switch and, instead of using a slave, put a pcs or hai multiscene controller in its place? do the other guys (hai, pcs) plan on releasing a load-bearing scene controller?
Well, yes and no. The US240 is a load bearing switch that supports multiple faceplates. Some of those faceplates are multibutton which in essence makes them a 'scene controller' as you say. But the huge negative is that the buttons are not backlit. The HAI and PCS dedicated multibutton controllers all have backlit buttons which most people want. Yes, you can do as you describe if you wire the 'secondary' location as a regular switch, ie having a normal line, neutral and ground.

- i was told by the guy who sold me that the sai swtiches don't report back their status but the pcs and hai switches do. but i haven't been able to find any confirmation of this while researching online. can someone confirm/deny that sai switches are functionally different than the pcs and hai ones?
As stated, that is configurable in the SAI.

- are there any issues w/ using a mix of pcs, hai, and or sai switches? i surmise the basic functionality works. how noticeable are the cosmetic differences?
No problems at all and several people have hybrid systems if for no other reason than to have backlit scene controllers with SAI switches, or having a few specialty switches with an HAI or PCS install. But yes, there is a pretty big cosmetic difference in the SAI vs HAI/PCS switch. SAI uses a wide clear plastic piece that serves as both the LED and air gap switch. Both HAI and PCS switches use a smaller (and imho brighter (almost too bright sometimes)) LED. Is is also behind a small light pipe, but is is smaller and integrated into the bezel of the switch better since it is not also an air gap switch. I think the PCS and SAI switches have the most distinct click where HAI is a bit mushier, but not still a decent feel. So... I think a PCS and HAI switch in the same gang box would look ok, but mixing HAI or PCS with SAI would look a bit worse. The blue backlit multibutton controller from HAI or PCS will blend fine with and of the mfg switches.

phase couplers and surge suppression

- i have the phase coupler that came in my pcs starter kit (PPC1). looking online, i see the sai starter kits advertise a phase coupler that goes in the breaker panel and appears to take the place of a 220v breaker. this seems like it would be a nice clean install. what do people do with the pcs phase coupler: do you put it in its own box, or do you find a way to put it in the breaker panel somehow?
I don't have a phase coupler installed, but I would follow the mfg instructions. I don't believe any of the wire in couplers should be in the panel itself, but rather a separate gang box attached to the panel. My panel is full and recessed in the wall - probably one of the reasons I have not bothered with trying to incorporate a couple yet. There is also a plug in coupler that goes in the dryer outlet if ease of install is the most important issue.

- are there any issues w/ making upb work behind surge suppressors? do installers typically use whole-house surge suppression and avoid using surge suppression strips?
Not that I know of, but a whole home suppressor is always a good thing. I like these guys for a whole house unit. I have talked to them a few times at Ehx and will be getting one from them.

interface module and automation/security controllers

- i'm planning to add a security/automation panel like the elk m1g or hai op2, and leaning toward the elk. are there any issues w/ elk's support of upb or any reason why hai op2 + hai switches is an easier combo to install/use?
None that I know of. UPB works great with either.

- what do i need to interface the elk with upb? is the PIM-R (RS232 version) sufficient, or is the usb version preferable?
Yes, you need the serial PIM and will need an M1XSP serial expander for the Elk. You will need to make sure the M1XSP firmware is the latest since it was changed to support the new PCS PIM. The new PCS PIM will not work with older XSP firmware. But as you probably know, that's a simply firmware flash.

.. anything else i should know about?
If you are concerned about look feel, etc. I always recommend people to but a switch of each mfg from Automated Outlet. When you decide what brand you want to go with, AO will take the other switches back and credit toward your new purchases. They also always have the best prices (or will meet or beat another competitive price). They also have top notch tech support and will answer your questions promptly and correctly before and after the sale. I bring this up because it sounds like you did not get an entirely accurate answer from your original place.

 

[js19707]

webmtn, thanks for the great post!

i'd be interested in more details about how to convert my 3-way circuit into a suitable use of a multi-button controller: (sorry if i get this wrong, i don't know the terminology and probably don't really understand the wiring for a 3-way circuit) you're suggesting i change the traveler wire to carry (unswitched) line and grab neutral from elsewhere in the J-box currently holding the slave switch?

also, you reminded me of one other question: the switches i have now are wired w/ solid copper wiring (not sure abt the gauge but it seems much "thicker" than the stranded wiring coming out the back of the PCS switches i bought). is there any issue w/ me just getting some wirenuts and twisting the two types of wire together? (not sure if there's any issue mixing stranded w/ solid, or wires of different gauges)

Several comments on the original questions:

As stated in an earlier reply, Gen2 refers to an enhanced noise handling capability of the device firmware. Where it gets confused is that PCS and HAI introduced some new features at the same time that they incorporated the new noise core. For example, the adjust delay response. SAI has this too, even though they don't have the new Gen2 core. As long as you don't have any noise on your circuits, the original devices (coined Gen1) will work just fine. However, we have run into several situations where the devices were initially installed and there was no noise, but some time later, some new appliance or device was introduced into the home which generates noise, and starts causing reliability issues. Even though you can most of the time determine what the offending device or circuit is, you still have to apply some kind of filtering or intervention. Our experience is that the new noise core of Gen2 dramatically improves performance in the presence of noise.

You can certainly mix and match devices from the various manufacturers and they will operate just fine. One thing to worry about is using HAI / PCS with SAI switches - they have different LED colors. The original PCS switches had red / green LEDs, HAI's are Red / Blue, and SAI is Blue / green. PCS changed theirs when they went to the Gen2 release to go with red / blue, like HAI. Remember that you can program very different LED operation depending upon your desires. One way to resolve this would be to program all the devices for their LED to be OFF when OFF and Blue when ON. All of the manufacturers devices should be able to do this.

One of my suggestions to "retrofitters" is that a 3 way circuit is a great opportunity to install a multi-button controller, especially a non-load controllable multibutton. You will have to rewire the travelers in the circuit so that you get power and neutral to the end box, but remember that a transmitter only needs two wires - power and neutral. If you're confused about this, respond and I can provide you with more details on how to do this.

The SAI devices can be programmed to send a status report "upon a rocker press". Therefore, if someone walks up and turns on the switch manually, it can be programmed to send a status report that an intelligent controller would use to keep track of status. The SAI units actually have the advantage of being able to send both a Command and a status report upon a rocker press - earlier PCS units could not do both - you had to pick one or the other. I need to see if this has been changed. Another issue related to this is that UPB devices will not send a status message if they are activated from a link command. The reason for this is that you could generate lots of powerline traffic if all devices responded in this manner. For example, by default, most devices have Link 1 in their RCV tables to easily create an ALL ON link. If a LInk 1 Activate were sent and all devices responded with a status report, you could have a couple of hundred status reports trying to be generated at the same time. Several of the inteligent controllers get around this by knowing what devices are controlled by a link and then making an assumption that all the devices responded.

By code, a wired in phase coupler is supposed to be installed in its own box near the breaker box. However, most of the time when I've seen an electrician install one, they just mount it inside the breaker box and just squeeze it in. They will first put in a small length of 12 gauge romex to the two gang breaker, then wirenut the phase coupler to the ends of the romex wires. The phase coupler pigtails are normally stranded, smaller gauge wires, which should not be inserted into the breaker's terminals.

There are actually two technologies for UPB phase couplers. The original phase couplers from all of the vendors can basically be described as just a capacitor across the two phases. However, SAI came out with a different technology in their phase couplers that they call Inverting phase couplers. I won't go into the technical differences, but recently, in our testing, we've been struggling to prove that the inverting style works as well as the original, non-invertng style. SAI continues to support the inverting style, and I very much respect their technical abilities, but we're concerned enough that we are going to start only pushing the non-inverting style. Don't let me talk you out of the inverting style if you believe in them, and we have heard of people who have used them and seen performance gains, but in our testing, the non-inverting style seems to have better performance.

There have been a couple of comments about using the dryer style plugin phase couplers. While these can be extremely simple to install, depending upon how far your laundry room is from the breaker box, you can have wildly varying results. Phase couplers work best when installed as close to the main breaker box as possible. The further you move it from the breaker box, the less improvement you will see.

Also, when installing an intelligent controller, I always recommend to try to mount the PIM for the controller as close to the main breaker box as possible. This will help you get as high a signal strength as possible.

Just more food for thought..........

 

[webmtn]

There won't be any problem wire nutting the romex 12 gauge wire to the stranded / smaller gauge wire from the dimmer. One thing to keep in mind is that most dimmers are only rated for 600W, so you won't be putting that much current through them. In fact, be careful about the load you put on the switch and make sure you don't exceed the manufacturer's recommendations.

There are many different ways of wiring 3 way circuits. One of the most common ways is to have one switch where the power enters the circuit, then there will be two wires called "travelers" that will go from the first switch to the second switch. Then, there will be another wire going from the second switch to the load. Depending upon which position the two switches are in, you will connect power from the first switch to the second switch which will apply power to the load. You can put a UPB dimmer at each end of the circuit, but you will need to connect one of the travelers to power and the second one to neutral, which will provide power to the second switch, thereby allowing it to operate normally and control the load. Then, in the first switch position, connect the controller (in wall controller from PCS or HAI or a multibutton faceplate on the SAI or WMT products) only to power and neutral and program it to be a transmitter only. I realize this is very confusing.

There will be multiple ways to implement this on your three way circuit. However, the whole secret to a three way circuit is understanding where power enters the circuit and where the load connects. Once you know that, then you can determine how to implement a desirable solution.

I haven't looked but I'm guessing there might be some how-to's or guides on this site that discuss 3 ways. If not, contact me through my email on my profile and I'll try to find you some info.

 

[Event5]

js,

Here is a document that discribes one of the ways a standard 3 way is wired and how to convert to a virtual 3 way. It also shows how to wire a UPB remote switch. The last diagram is for a US240.

Dave

 

[AnthonyZ]

This won't really apply to the OP's questions but, as some of you know, I have been involved in some rather large UPB installs (with FANTASTIC support from Web Mtn., thanks Terry and Gary!) and there is definately a case to be made for GenII PIM's. Though, in theory, the PIM at the HA controller should not be offering any real improvement in comm's between phases, it is, in real world conditions, doing just that. I will be using a split phase repeater and GenII on any install over approx. 100 devices in the future. As a dealer, less than 100% reliability counts as a failure.