running wires to the headend

[v1rtu0s1ty]

The power for 4 wire smokes comes from a seperate bus (SAUX) so that they can be reset, and so that a problem on another bus (such as VAUX) does not interupt the power to the smokes.

This is why I sated you need to run a seperate 18/4 to the can from the panel for the SAUX power for the smokes.

BraveSirRobbin, this is the post that I was asked to run another 18/4 wire. But I still don't understand how the connection will be. Anyways, I will be adding more runs in case I needed to add more devices. However, it would help me to if I understand it now on how the other 18/4 is going to be utilized.

EDIT: How is your testing going on though?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Yes, like I said, these people are more familiar and know more installation methods and codes than I do. I'm sure it has something to do with fire rating or something like that. I'm sure they are correct, I was just asking the "why".

Toymaster, digger, IVB, and others are way more familiar with codes, installations, etc...

I was just stepping in to try to help you with the data base hub retrofit question.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

AH, re-reading Digger's quote above that makes total sense now!

The power for 4 wire smokes comes from a seperate bus (SAUX) so that they can be reset, and so that a problem on another bus (such as VAUX) does not interupt the power to the smokes.

This is why I sated you need to run a seperate 18/4 to the can from the panel for the SAUX power for the smokes.

 

[Digger]

You need the seperate run for the smoke power since teh smoke power comes off the SAUX on the left side of the M1 just below teh LED's for the Telco.

Smoke Detectors are powered seperately for three reasons:

1. If you powered them from the same buss as lets say a motion and something happened to the motion causing it to take down the power buss you would lose your smoke detectors.

2. For smoke detectors to reset they have to power down and back up. The SAUX powers down for 5 seconds during smoke detector reset.

3. Fire Alarm Verification - resets the smoke detectors by powering down the SAUX for 5 seconds as part of that function.

THE NFPA requires that a security device not disable the fire alarm capability of the system (such as a faulty motion etc).

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

AH, re-reading Digger's quote above that makes total sense now!

The power for 4 wire smokes comes from a seperate bus (SAUX) so that they can be reset, and so that a problem on another bus (such as VAUX) does not interupt the power to the smokes.

This is why I sated you need to run a seperate 18/4 to the can from the panel for the SAUX power for the smokes.

Ok, so are my 5 smoke detectors in 2nd floor still going to be terminated to M1XIN? Or I need to adjust my diagram?

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

You need the seperate run for the smoke power since teh smoke power comes off the SAUX on the left side of the M1 just below teh LED's for the Telco.

Smoke Detectors are powered seperately for three reasons:

1. If you powered them from the same buss as lets say a motion and something happened to the motion causing it to take down the power buss you would lose your smoke detectors.

2. For smoke detectors to reset they have to power down and back up. The SAUX powers down for 5 seconds during smoke detector reset.

3. Fire Alarm Verification - resets the smoke detectors by powering down the SAUX for 5 seconds as part of that function.

THE NFPA requires that a security device not disable the fire alarm capability of the system (such as a faulty motion etc).

We were posting at the same time. So, you are saying that all my smoke detectors in 2nd floor should not be terminated to M1XIN. Am I correct? Should it be terminated to M1DBHR instead which is near M1 main controller? Or should it be terminated to M1 main controller?

 

[Digger]

the smokes hook up to the zone expander (any of the zones) as well as the SAUX buss.
I personally put each smoke to a seperate zone (not required) so I can have the M1 announce the location of the fire (Master Bedroom, Bedroom 2, Bedroom 3, Hallway etc)

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

the smokes hook up to the zone expander (any of the zones) as well as the SAUX buss.
I personally put each smoke to a seperate zone (not required) so I can have the M1 announce the location of the fire (Master Bedroom, Bedroom 2, Bedroom 3, Hallway etc)

I'm really really sorry Digger but I'm not understanding when you said, "You need the seperate run for the smoke power since teh smoke power comes off the SAUX on the left side of the M1 just below teh LED's for the Telco". When you said this, what devices are being connected? I think the reason I'm confused is because I have never seen a smoke sensor yet. Does it have 2 outputs, 1 for power and 1 that goes to the M1X1N? I think if you have some time, can you draw me a simple diagram. That would help a lot.

Thanks.

 

[Digger]

4 wire smokes have just that 4 wires. 2 for power (from the SAUX) and 2 are like contacts and go to any zone on the panel. Also many people supervise the power to the detector with a relay at the end of the line (a story for another time).

2 wire smokes can only go to ZONE 16 of the M1 and you need to use all of the same type as stated in the M1 manual. I believe System Sensor 2WB is the model they are specifying (with or without thermal).

 

[rfdesq]

Now, I'm confused. Why is everyone recommending the Data Bus Hub for retrofit installations when the house is a brand new installation still in stick framing? Why would anyone run 22/2 instead of 22/4? Why hasn't anyone recommended running 22/12 from the second to the first floor rather than multiple 22/2's? This quote I understand and agree with, "I would make the head end just that. A head end. Make everything a home run and not to have seperate panels though out the house. Personaly when I have an issue I do not want to be running around the house troubleshooting. Plus come the middle of summer going into an attic is not what I have in mind of a good time." In my third M1 Gold installation I'm planning on putting the DBH and Expander in the same can as the M1. If I have a problem with any of the devices I want to be looking at them all at the same time.

I just reread the documentation on the DBH and the M1XIN. Both recommend that the devices be placed in the same can as the M1.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Why is everyone recommending the Data Bus Hub for retrofit installations when the house is a brand new installation still in stick framing?

First off, I am NOT recommending the retrofit card, I'm just helping him understand how to hook it up IF he decided to use it.

In my case, I didn't feel like terminating RJ-45 connectors and I (my opinion and way of doing things) decided to run 22/4 to the keypads instead of Cat5e.

To each his own.

 

[Digger]

There is more than one acceptable way of doing this. It is up to the installer or DIY to decide what he or she prefers. Having a CAN on each level of the house allows for easier future expansion etc in many peoples OPINION.

We can throw ideas out there and let people take the ideas they feel are best. for their situation.

And for a DIY to get 22/12 and pull that between floors would almost require a CAN on each floor anyway.

I seldom hear of people complaining they pulled to mny wires and often hear of people saying they wished they pulled more so I always suggest that they pull extra when possible.

Nobody said to put the hub in a remote CAN. That really should be with the M1. As for expansion boards it is common to put them in remote CANS. If you look at Ademco's, Napco's and others they actually provide an enclosure with them.

 

[rfdesq]

In my case, I didn't feel like terminating RJ-45 connectors and I (my opinion and way of doing things) decided to run 22/4 to the keypads instead of Cat5e.

Sorry, my post wasn't meant to incite. Do you feel you lost anything by running 22/4 instead of Cat5e from the keypads? I ran Cat6 because I needed the programmable LED output and liked the idea of an additional zone on the same wire. No flames meant.

 

[rfdesq]

And for a DIY to get 22/12 and pull that between floors would almost require a CAN on each floor anyway.

I seldom hear of people complaining they pulled to mny wires and often hear of people saying they wished they pulled more so I always suggest that they pull extra when possible.

Nobody said to put the hub in a remote CAN. That really should be with the M1. As for expansion boards it is common to put them in remote CANS. If you look at Ademco's, Napco's and others they actually provide an enclosure with them.

Once again, sorry, I didn't mean to incite I'm still a bit confused about the placement of input expanders. Here is what the ELK documentation says "A single M1XIN Expander can be mounted inside the M1 enclosure on the left hand side of the M1 board using the supplied ELK-SWG Circuit Board Glides. If additional expanders are required, they can be mounted in either an ELK-SWB14 or ELK-SWB28 enclosure. Up to 8 expanders can be mounted in an SWB14 while up to 16 expanders can be mounted in an SWB28." From a technical standpoint is it better to run the wire to the input expander or run the input expander to the M1? Or, does it matter? I agree with you that more wires is better, that is why my confusion in using 22/2 wire.

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

First off, I would like to apologize. I was just browsing the M1DBHR manual from Elk's website and I really didn't dig deeply on where this device is really used for. I only relied on the look of the connectors. I told myself, it matched M1X1N so I thought, ah, I should get M1DBHR. That's how I got to it.

I received an expert opinion via PM that M1DBH is the more preferrable route. I'm going with that route now instead. However, M1DBH uses RJ45 receptables. Would that mean that I would be running CAT5E between M1XIN and M1DBH? This is the information I cannot find from the M1XIN pdf manual. I actually have a new drawing but again, it's my guess. And I still have confusion over smoke detector or similar. Smoke detector uses 18/4. Am I correct that from the 18/4 wire, only 2 conductors will be used to connect to the M1XIN board? What about the other 2 as mentioned on the previous post, it goes to SAUX. Where is this saux found, what board?