Surge Suppressor

[gf5300]

Well, I think that either a lightning strike or an electrical surge took out 4 of my HAI HLC switches. The switches work 4.0 manually but seemed to have lost all UPB communications. I have tried to reset the to factory settings and have cycled power to see if they would come back with no luck.
Question for the HAI guys: What would be the best way to protect my HLC switches (over 80 in the house)? If a whole house surge supressor is the answer which model is recommended by HAI (compatible with UPB signals)?
Thanks.

 

[Steve]

I know you are looking for an answer from HAI, but I just wanted to pint you to this thread. Unfortunately its almost impossible to say which is 'best', but I think a key is the filtering or ability to smooth out all internally generated spikes as well as the big hit. Anyway, that thread will give you a few ideas in addition to what HAI may tell you.

 

[Neurorad]

Steve - any idea how these whole-house surger protectors, attached in parallel to the neutral and hot bus bars, work to filter EMI?

I did some digging on 'mil standard 220B', and it appears that the filter is usually connected in parallel.

 

[Steve]

Well, I probably am not the best person to try to explain it. You can look at the spec sheet. I guess it has something to do with UL1283. But the bigger thing imho is the Enhanced Transient Filter (ETF) which basically smooths out the power and takes out all of the everyday min spikes generated in the house. Yoy may want to call them for all the gory details. The person I talked to at the shows was Bob Levit and he is very knowledgeable.

 

[mustangcoupe]

Neurorad

From my experience I would guess that they have some either intentional capacitance or it's just "system" capacitance to ground creates a small EMI filter. if this is the case it's not really a great effective filter, but it does work some.

 

[Neurorad]

I did some digging on 'mil standard 220B', and it appears that the filter is usually connected in SERIES (edit) parallel.

The whole-house surge surpressors are usually connected in parallel, in the panel.

I looked at UL1283, and it's just some quality testing.

 

[mustangcoupe]

I did some digging on 'mil standard 220B', and it appears that the filter is usually connected in SERIES (edit) parallel.

The whole-house surge surpressors are usually connected in parallel, in the panel.

I looked at UL1283, and it's just some quality testing.

I agree most emi filters are usually installed in series but that is because of a series inductor/choke but the caps are usually parallel L (or N) to ground, and L to N for a basic filter schematic checkout out this catalog page, http://corcom.com/Series/PowerLine/VW/



(BTW: I supervise an EMI testing lab)

 

[Neurorad]

Thanks, Mustang!

OK, so a parallel filter would be fine.

Since I don't know what company you work with, I think it would be OK for you to give specific rec's, for a whole-home combined surge protector and EMI filter.

Perhaps a brand? Eaton, Tyco, TPS, Joslyn?

Mustang, what's your take on the situation? Is 'electronic rust' a real concern (theory sounds legit), or a marketing gimmick? I tend to question everything, no offense Steve. Right now, I'm holding off on a basic surge protector until I decide if EMI filtering would be really useful.

BTW, I avoid powerline technology.

 

[mustangcoupe]

To be honest Neurorad, I have not looked too much into the whole house suppressors until recently, so I can not give you an informed opinion. I do agree about the theory of the small spikes also being harmful to electronics, but I do not know enough about this specific unit to say it works. But in reading over their Sales Literature Steve pointed to they did use the specs and waveforms which I would be looking for (not to say others don't).

Another few things to think about...

• It is hard to determine if they actually do any good because as long as you have no equipment damaged due to lightning or SEE a local strike, it is impossible to prove they work, or not.
  
• These units are designed to protect against surges which are coming in through the service (power line surges, lightning strike, faulty transformers etc.). So any real close strikes ex. directly to your building this may not protect against
  
• And if you live in a area which happens to be prone to lightning then you need to be concerned with the unit getting damaged and not knowing it is still working or not. It appears that most of them do have lights that indicate operational status, which would be a great concern to me.

Even with a whole house unit I would still use plug strips with built in protection on that very expensive HA/HT equipment "just in case".

 

[Neurorad]

Thanks, Mustang.

I understand that nothing will protect against a direct strike, and I would employ both the whole-house and strip protectors.

I was just curious how a cominbation surge surpresor and filter, in parallel at the breaker box, would protect against 'min-surges' generated in my home.

 

[Steve]

I tend to question everything, no offense Steve.

Hey, none taken, you are just being very thorough and I am the same way. Just to be clear I am not saying The TPS/Joslyn unit is the best, its just one that is always at Ehx and in all my research looked to be very good. Joslyn equipment is mainly industrial and their stuff is used in alot of hospitals where they demand clean power. That Eaton unit did look good too. But the 'rust' theory is very real, not marketing at all so I do think a transient filter is very important, especially if you have alot of motors, etc which tend to spike when turned on (pool pumps, vacuums, ac handlers, even refrigerator throw spikes on the line). It is true and I agree its hard to tell what works, but I guess you can get an o-scope or something and look at before and after measurements, etc. Alot of companies will also recommend 2 whole house protectors depending on your setup. Ideally I should have 2 but costs kept me at 1. I have a main shutoff/meter outside which feeds the main panel in garage. Ideally I would have 1 outside to take the brunt of a hit at the source and slow it down/make it smaller so that whatever reaches the main panel will then be reduced that much more before it hits the end devices which could have their own surge outlets or strips for yet a last level of protection. Knocking out a surge in stages like that is usually pretty effective but yes a direct hit is nasty and likely will kill stuff anyway.

 

[Neurorad]

Steve, I take your few years' worth of research into account - if it was someone else, just mentioning it, I'd blow it off.

Because of your posts concerning EMI filtering, I'm looking into this.

Currently, I don't have a lot of fancy electronics to worry about, but that will change over the next 10 years' worth of birthdays and Christmases.

 

[Steve]

You probably know more about the EMI filtering than me now, the ETF was was actually more important to me.

 

[westom]

Well, I think that either a lightning strike or an electrical surge took out 4 of my HAI HLC switches. ... What would be the best way to protect my HLC switches (over 80 in the house)? If a whole house surge supressor is the answer which model is recommended by HAI (compatible with UPB signals)?

'Whole house' protectors come from the more responsible companies such as Square D, General Electric Leviton, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Keison, Siemens, and others. Remember the protector is not protection. A protector is simply a connecting device to protection.

What absorbs surge energy? Earth. Either that energy is harmlessly dissipated in earth, or it goes hunting inside the house for electronics to harm. IOW your earthing also must be upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code. Earthing - not other house wiring. That ground wire should be short ('less than 10 feet'), no sharp bends, no splices, separated from other wires, not inside metallic conduit, and connected to the same earth ground used by cable TV, telephone, and satellite dish. Those others also making an earthing connection with the same requirements.

In newsgroups, there appears to be appreciation of the Leviton protector. Do not know why. Cutler-Hammer's sells in Lowes for less than $50.

Protectors are for surges. Completely different from noise, EMI, etc. Protection means every wire in every cable connects short to single point earth ground. Either directly (cable TV, satellite dish) or via a 'whole house' protector (telephone, AC electric). Did you know all telephone subscribers have a 'whole house' protectors installed by the telco for free? But it also will only be as effective as its earth ground.

Protection means no utility wire carries a surge into the building.

Protector performs some filtering because their active components (when not doing surge protection) also act as capacitors (which are why a telco protector uses low capacitance components to not impeded DSL).

 

[electron]

westom, welcome to CT! That's a GREAT first post, very good and important advice about the grounding!