System Design Feedback

0ptimist

New Member
With perhaps some naivete I volunteered to design and help install an automation system in the house my in-laws are about to begin constructing.  I have some experience with an OmniPro II system, but this will be my first installation, and it's shaping up to be a beast (2-story ~4,000 sq ft house plus 500 sq ft garage aparment).  I've been pouring over the forums here for a few weeks now, reading through every wiring thread I can find (and the 101 guides) to pick up ideas, best practices, etc.
 
I'm at the point now of getting wiring length estimates and formalizing the design scheme, so I wanted to post some of what I've got here for feedback and perhaps some ideas on what people are doing with blank slate installations these days.  I also have some questions I'd be curious to get opinions on as well:
 
  1. Is it still necessary these days to run several RG6QS cables to each TV outlet?  The 102 guide suggests 4 RG6QS + 3 CAT5e, but I'm curious as to whether or not this is being phased out in favor of mostly CAT5e/6 runs.
  2. Along those lines, has anyone been using HDBaseT over CAT5e (CM/CMR, UTP) and has it been working well?
  3. Analog or IP cameras?
  4. Is it worth it to run mic wire to every room?
  5. Has anyone seen issues with 12/24V power distribution over 50+ feet runs?
 
As for the system design, these are the basic specs:
 
Controller:  HAI/Leviton OmniPro II
Whole House Audio:  Russound (CAA66 or similar); 6-8 zones to start
Room Speakers:  Monoprice 4104
Video Distribution: TBD (HDBaseT matrix?)
Lights:  Simply Automated UPB
Temperature Sensors:  Leviton
Thermostat:  TBD (needs to be controllable by OmniPro, but the OmniStats are ugly)
Blinds: Somfy ST30 DCT
Occupancy/Motion:  Sensor Switch CM9/10 (normal, a few PDT)
Occupancy: Pulsor ENHP (2nd floor only)
Smoke/CO:  System Sensor 4WT-B, COSMO-4W
Window/Door Contacts:  Tane (STB, Pill)
Glass Break Sensors:  Sentrol
Cameras: TBD (if analog, Monoprice 10900 or 10901)
DVR:  No clue, needs to allow 3rd party access for camera feeds
Wifi AP:  Ubiquiti Unifi UAP-Pro
Touchscreens:  iPad mini
Software/Interface:  Haiku/HaikuHelper
Enclosure(s): Leviton
 
Basic Wiring Configurations:
 
Phone/Ethernet:  CAT5e x2 per outlet
TV:  RG6QS x2 per outlet
AV Extension:  CAT5e x2-4 per outlet
Speakers:  14/4 x1 per speaker, home run
Touchscreens:  CAT5e x2, 18/2 Zip x1
Omni Keypads:  CAT5e x1, 18/4 FW x1
Window/Door Contacts:  22/4 x1 per window/door
Glass Break:  22/4 x1 per window (1st floor only)
Occupancy:  22/4 x1
Temperature:  CAT5e x1
Smoke:  18/4 FW x1
Blinds:  CAT5e x1, 18/2 Zip x1 per window
Cameras:  RG6QS x1, 18/2 Zip x1, CAT5e x1 per camera
Other Sensors: 22/4, CAT5e as needed
Futureproofing:  Extra CAT5e & 22/4 runs, smurf tubes in various locations
 
In the interests of space, I won't break it down by room, suffice it to say I've finished rough estimates for 2/3 of the first floor and I'm at close to 9,000 feet of total wiring already.  I am very interested in opinions on CAT5e vs. CAT6 in particular, since that is the bulk of the runs and would be the most significant cost differential for the cabling.
 
-alex
 
Welcome to Cocoontech Alex.
 
Has anyone seen issues with 12/24V power distribution over 50+ feet runs?
 
I have Ubiquiti proprietary POE cams running some 100 feet plus runs of cat5e.  I also run much standard POE stuff these days.
 
My outdoor landscaping lighting is all 12VDC LEDs with runs that exceed 200 feet today.  (multiple zones of LED lighting).
 
I would run more cables than you need and still add smurf tubes. 
 
Two homes ran RG6 plus cat5e and still using RG6 for stuff (Broadband cable, FIOS and Satellite).
 
The other home office has a desk in the middle of the room and I ran PVC tubing in cement under the floor from either side of the room for LV / HV cabling such that all of the wiring there is coming up in the middle of the room (well the floor is tiled).
 
Is your comm closet going to be in living space or unfinished space (basement?)?
 
CAT6 brings along very specific requirements on installing and connecting it.   Realistically there's not much that won't be served effectively with a home-run length of CAT5E.
 
Be careful regarding your window warranties when it comes to planning for blinds and security.  That and make sure there's actually decent means to get the wire to the place most likely needed.  In several of our installs the structural requirements of the framing meant there was literally no open spaces next to the windows to allow for wiring to be left behind. 
 
Smurf tube is expensive and a hassle to install.  I only put it into boxes (empty) where I knew it would be pretty impossible to pull cabling later (outside walls are spray-foamed).  But the actual wire used in those locations is NOT in the conduit.  Why bother pulling it out later?   Just ignore it in favor of whatever needs to come in via the empty conduit.
 
I ran 2 RG6 coax to each potential TV location.  One was dead (must've gotten nicked somewhere).  More than two would be pointless.  I did run mini-coax (5 wire RGBLR) to each room's "very probable" TV location should I want to push component at some point.  Realistically that's all being done better now with whatever-over-CAT5E anyway.  Presently, however, it's more likely to be done with a streaming box connected via wired Ethernet (Roku, Tivo, etc).
 
Check with your security contractor NOW, as some locations have code requirements that may not allow attaching a security system to a AC-connected fire detector setup.  Ours doesn't, so we have two in a few locations.  Doesn't bother me though as this is a situation that's not harmed by duplication (other than some impact on decor).
 
Same thing with drapes/blinds.  Get that sorted out NOW before framing and drywall is done.
 
As for cameras, I have analog units now, but each location also has a CAT5E pulled to it.  I can re-use the power portion of the analog cabling, or just go with PoE cameras instead.
 
Plan your motion sensors locations outside.  I have yet to connect any.  But floodlight locations may not coincide with the best places to put motion sensors.  Mine are up high on the 2nd story eaves, but motion sensor locations have CAT5 & 22/4 to them for future installation.
 
Likewise consider where you'd put night time IR illumination, separate from the cameras.  We get bugs swarming around the camera's IR lighting some nights.  This makes them useless for motion sensing.  Had I know I'd have planned for IR illuminators separately.
 
You list the Pulsor ENHP as an occupancy sensor.  I would classify this more as a motion sensor.  If you are planning on using it with the Sure Action 111 or 313 processor, it will only detect motion (i.e. a changes in pressure on the floor).  It won't tell you that someone is in the room if they are not walking over the covered area.
 
What are you trying to detect with these sensors? 
 
pete_c said:
Welcome to Cocoontech Alex.
 
Thanks.  Been lurking around for awhile; now I have the opportunity to actually build something, so it's a chance to get more involved. :)
 
 
pete_c said:
I have Ubiquiti proprietary POE cams running some 100 feet plus runs of cat5e.  I also run much standard POE stuff these days.
 
My outdoor landscaping lighting is all 12VDC LEDs with runs that exceed 200 feet today.  (multiple zones of LED lighting).
 
I would run more cables than you need and still add smurf tubes. 
 
Two homes ran RG6 plus cat5e and still using RG6 for stuff (Broadband cable, FIOS and Satellite).
 
The other home office has a desk in the middle of the room and I ran PVC tubing in cement under the floor from either side of the room for LV / HV cabling such that all of the wiring there is coming up in the middle of the room (well the floor is tiled).
 
Is your comm closet going to be in living space or unfinished space (basement?)?
 
The comm closet is on the first floor, under the stairway landing (central to the house with one wall to the exterior).  It's about 5'x8' with 6' ceiling height, and we have the entire area to use for this.  Unfinished floor (concrete), and I'll probably have them put up plywood for mounting equipment instead of drywall.  A expansion box for the Omni will be upstairs somewhere, and also in the garage (detached).
 
The PVC tube is a good idea; I'll have to check with the builder to see if we can put a few under the foundation.
 
 
wkearney99 said:
Be careful regarding your window warranties when it comes to planning for blinds and security.  That and make sure there's actually decent means to get the wire to the place most likely needed.  In several of our installs the structural requirements of the framing meant there was literally no open spaces next to the windows to allow for wiring to be left behind. 
 
Good point; I hadn't considered that.  I'll put it on the list of things to discuss with the builder.
 
wkearney99 said:
Check with your security contractor NOW, as some locations have code requirements that may not allow attaching a security system to a AC-connected fire detector setup.  Ours doesn't, so we have two in a few locations.  Doesn't bother me though as this is a situation that's not harmed by duplication (other than some impact on decor).
 
The plans call for AC powered smoke detectors, which as far as I know is not supported by the Omni.  One of the things I wanted to discuss with the builder was if the code requirements would let us use the 4-wire Omni-compatible ones instead.  If not, then yes, we'll have to run them in parallel.  The house also has to have a sprinkler system, which at this point I'm ignoring as far as the automation/security system goes.
 
 
wkearney99 said:
Plan your motion sensors locations outside.  I have yet to connect any.  But floodlight locations may not coincide with the best places to put motion sensors.  Mine are up high on the 2nd story eaves, but motion sensor locations have CAT5 & 22/4 to them for future installation.
 
Likewise consider where you'd put night time IR illumination, separate from the cameras.  We get bugs swarming around the camera's IR lighting some nights.  This makes them useless for motion sensing.  Had I know I'd have planned for IR illuminators separately.
 
Thanks -- other than cameras/flood light controls, outdoor security stuff hadn't been considered yet.  I'll add it to the list.
 
 
RAL said:
You list the Pulsor ENHP as an occupancy sensor.  I would classify this more as a motion sensor.  If you are planning on using it with the Sure Action 111 or 313 processor, it will only detect motion (i.e. a changes in pressure on the floor).  It won't tell you that someone is in the room if they are not walking over the covered area.
 
What are you trying to detect with these sensors? 
 
Yes, I was planning on using them with the 313 processor, for occupancy and motion (when away) sensors.  From the discussions I've seen around here, some people seem to have had good results using them instead of the ceiling mount variety.  There is plenty of time to make the final decision on this one, so it's on the "research more" list.
 
The PVC tube is a good idea; I'll have to check with the builder to see if we can put a few under the foundation.
 
One home is a ranch style in Florida near the water and elevated via FEMA building codes.  The wiring closet in in the middle of the house.  There have three panels (one is for the HAI OPII).  Wires run into the attic mostly.  Above the wiring closet is an area with a floor and much lighting.  The attic pitch is very high such that much of the LV wiring is at 6-9 feet above the floor of the attic.
 
I did build cat walks in one home in the attic to each of the bedrooms (with lighting).  I used plastic / wood on the cat walks.
 
The house has a 9 foot ceilings (which was a PITA).  I used PVC for a custom built into the wall media area and the office (well and a couple of other places).  LV wiring is configured external and internal (irrigation, CCTV, PIRs, satellite on one side, broadband on the other side (well FIOS today).  Both sides LV cabling go to the wiring closet. All rooms (literally) have in wall speakers and boxes for audio control all homerunned to wiring closet.  While doing this stuff (cement) you can install a drop in cement safe in whatever office you are using.  The panels are on drywall and all of the wires are inside of the walls (up and down).  You cannot tell what is there really the way its done; but its a PITA to service.
 
I did run extra everything between the media section of the great room and the wiring closet.  I prewired for 7.1 sound in two rooms additionally (aside from the zoned audio stuff).  In another home have done similiar with 7.1 wiring (IE: master bedroom for example - well cuz there is a couch area there et al).
 
The plans call for AC powered smoke detectors, which as far as I know is not supported by the Omni.
 
I left the contractor installed 120VAC / 9V battery smokes in place and added 4-wire zoned Omni Smokes to the mix.
 
The house also has to have a sprinkler system
 
I had my manifold box (2nd endeavor,) mounted up from ground level in a berm.  I also used the opportunity to run PVC tubing to then proposed berms in the outside periferal edges of the property.  These runs today have HV / LV and used for CCTV, sensors, weather stuff et al.  In Florida manifold boxes are below ground level (well sea level mostly in sand - have issues with this).
 
I had the Florida home prewired for alarm by an alarm company.  They were gurus and cover everything (literally) and the I installed my HAI OPII panel.  In the midwest I post wired alarm stuff (it was a real PITA).
 
Indoor plumbing is proprietary run for irrigation in the two homes.  I have currently separate water meters, shut offs, water pressure gauges on each of two for two irrigation setups.  Initially had a Rainbird system installed by a rainbird installer.  The controller is in the garage and cabling runs outside to opposite side of the home probably close to 250 feet. The rainbird box is still there but using two irrigation controllers connected to one box (well firmware?) for my irrigation.
 
Initially installed CCTV was combination outdoor Optex PIR / cameras.  Each location has RG6/siamese plus cat5e going to it.  Easy to wire cameras; but a bit of a pain.  What is neato about these is that they do not look like cameras at all.
 
Updated electrical and electrical panel for more granularity, plus whole house surge plus whatever I needed for the powerline controlled lighting.  (today master bathroom has some 4  breakers).  In Florida MB is divided up into sections; and is probably 1/4 the size of the master bedroom.  There its also configured for 7.1 multimedia (cuz there is also room there for another couch).
 
I will reiterate, talk to your blind and security system providers.  NOT just the builder.  Builders don't know squat about stuff like this.  
 
That and also consider your efforts need to dovetail into the builder's schedules.  You're a 3rd party here (it's your parents contracting the house) so be mindful that your interruptions may have impact on the construction schedule and, perhaps more importantly, budget.  
 
That and the builder may or may not allow anyone else to do any work on the structure.  Think about it, they're on the hook for building it and having it pass various inspections.  They may have good reasons for being very careful about who's allowed on the job site.  Do not just assume...
 
Here I had contractor make copies of the layers I wanted to modify.  I penciled in my stuff initially for the LV cabling and got quotes.  I met separately with the alarm company as I made some major changes to their wiring (homeruns and where and what). 
 
As Bill is mentioning above; contractor in Florida knew nothing about LV wiring and quoted standard electrical pricing for wire pulls.  That said I was able to get a weekend in the home before the walls went up to wire my stuff.  I also interupted the telco installer and had him redo everything with cat5e and I had it home runned all to the wiring closet.  Contractor was concurrently building some 3-4 four homes in the area and would show me his methodologies of what he was doing which helped me decide whether I would let him do the same for my new home or autonomously subcontract for some endeavors.  (contractor was nice giving me credits to allow me to sub some stuff). 
 
I was a bit picky and would halt construction literally if I saw something out of kilter; meeting with the general / contracting company to reiterate following the "plan" and compliance with said architectural drawings.  I did see sometimes short cuts which bugged me.
 
wkearney99 said:
I will reiterate, talk to your blind and security system providers.  NOT just the builder.  Builders don't know squat about stuff like this.  
 
There are none; wiring for the blinds, automation and security is DIY at this point.  Because of the expense for blind motors, we're going to wire everything up now and purchase later.  We may look at having an alarm company run wiring into the closet as Pete did just to make the rest of it a little easier.
 
wkearney99 said:
That and also consider your efforts need to dovetail into the builder's schedules.  You're a 3rd party here (it's your parents contracting the house) so be mindful that your interruptions may have impact on the construction schedule and, perhaps more importantly, budget.  
 
That and the builder may or may not allow anyone else to do any work on the structure.  Think about it, they're on the hook for building it and having it pass various inspections.  They may have good reasons for being very careful about who's allowed on the job site.  Do not just assume...
 
Understood; there have been meetings with the builder and we have been cleared to run our own LV wire, and the install will be coordinated with the job schedule.  I also have copies of the plans I've been working off of.  My brother in-law is overseeing most of the construction and will be helping with the LV installation, so budgeting and scheduling are being managed.
 
pete_c said:
I had my manifold box (2nd endeavor,) mounted up from ground level in a berm.  I also used the opportunity to run PVC tubing to then proposed berms in the outside periferal edges of the property.  These runs today have HV / LV and used for CCTV, sensors, weather stuff et al.  In Florida manifold boxes are below ground level (well sea level mostly in sand - have issues with this).
 
Sorry, I should have been more specific -- there is an indoor sprinkler system required by the city.  There will be an irrigation system as well though, so I'll take this into consideration.  We're in Houston, so it's close to the same issue with stuff below ground.
 
pete_c said:
Indoor plumbing is proprietary run for irrigation in the two homes.  I have currently separate water meters, shut offs, water pressure gauges on each of two for two irrigation setups.  Initially had a Rainbird system installed by a rainbird installer.  The controller is in the garage and cabling runs outside to opposite side of the home probably close to 250 feet. The rainbird box is still there but using two irrigation controllers connected to one box (well firmware?) for my irrigation.
 
Is the Rainbird tied into the automation system, or managed separately?  Irrigation control is an area I haven't yet researched; it's low on the priority list for now but in the future I'd want to tie it into the rest of the system.
 
0ptimist said:
There are none; wiring for the blinds, automation and security is DIY at this point.  Because of the expense for blind motors, we're going to wire everything up now and purchase later.  We may look at having an alarm company run wiring into the closet as Pete did just to make the rest of it a little easier.

Understood; there have been meetings with the builder and we have been cleared to run our own LV wire, and the install will be coordinated with the job schedule.  I also have copies of the plans I've been working off of.  My brother in-law is overseeing most of the construction and will be helping with the LV installation, so budgeting and scheduling are being managed.
 
Shades are only barely DIY and then you still really have to know what you're doing, especially with regard to measurements.  Security, likewise, there's a lot of "little things" that a decent security company will take into consideration.
 
I strongly suggest you find a reputable local blind installer and have them come out to see the house DURING construction, or earlier to see the plans.  Pay them to consult on it if need be.  It'll be worth it to have input BEFORE drywall and trim have to get wrecked later.  Anything can be patched, of course, but it'd be a shame to miss the chance ahead of time.  Dare I say "the window of opportunity"?  ^_^
 
That and take a VERY close look at the framing plans to see how wiring would get installed for the windows.  I had plans... the framing said otherwise...  ooops.
 
Don't get me wrong, I love DIY efforts, but I had someone else do the security system and the blinds.  
 
Also check if you can get a secondary water meter.  Don't know if that's possible in your area.  Around here we pay for water & sewage combined.  I had an agricultural sub-meter installed that tracks outdoor use.  For that we only pay the water fee, not the per-gallon sewage as well.  Now, it'll be a few years before those savings offset the cost of installing it, but to me it's the principle of the thing.
 
Is the Rainbird tied into the automation system, or managed separately? 
 
Irrigation control is an area I haven't yet researched; it's low on the priority list for now but in the future I'd want to tie it into the rest of the system.
 
I had a Rainbird irrigation company put in the system.  I was present when it was installed.  I sort of built a utility section in the basement.  When they started with the new copper piping; they were going initially to run a short 1" pipe straight outside.  I had them run it from the water ingress to the utility section of the basement.  It was much more copper pipe sweating and runs.  I did put two manual shutoffs in place and a second personal water meter for just the irrigation. (IE: I currently have one city water meter and two personal water meters in place).
 
The irrigation installation company was also going to short cut the wiring and again I changed where the cluster of wires went into the house to the other side and into the garage.
 
They installed a Rainbird ESP system.  I did initially try to modify it and ended up taking it out and putting my stuff into the Rainbird Irrigation box.  The LV guy was new and knew nothing about wiring the cluster of wires from the manifold box to the Rainbird controller.  I was so frustrated watching him; I told him to let me wire it myself (he was clueless which was sort of funny consider the amount of money I paid for the installation).  I didn't really want to wait all day for something that only took a few minutes to do.
 
Outside I made friends with the guys installing the PVC tubing and asked them to show me how to run one of those machines.  Concurrently I paid them an extra $100 to run a whole bunch more PVC pipes for my LV stuff.  (that really didn't get put in until a couple of years later).  Most difficult was to run the PVC pipes under the sidewalk and front walks.
 
Here too you can have a second city water meter installed just for irrigation if you want.  (so my infrastructure is set up for this).  In Florida the irrigation is autonomous from the drinking water and used a common subdivision well.  Actually I brought up the initial idea at an HOA meeting and the subdivision is tiny at only 50 homes.  Tapped into wells there were initially installed in the 1950's.
 
You can do the same using whatever you decide to install.  The cluster of wires from the manifold to the box is probably 24 wires or more.  I am not using them all today.  I have some 10 zones with 4-5 heads in each zone covering almost 1 acre of land.  You can get more granular with more zones and different types of heads.  (looking at the endeavor for future automating efforts).
 
HVAC stuff today is very efficient.  Look for the best bang for the buck relating to endeavor whether it is zoned or not zoned  (well that and your water heater).  This is more related to infrastructure / efficiency stuff more than automation as I do and do not manage my Omnistat stuff.  Really just look at it more than anything (along with temperature and humidity levels).  I like the recirculating water for the showers stuff for instant hot water.
 
wkearney99 said:
Shades are only barely DIY and then you still really have to know what you're doing, especially with regard to measurements.  Security, likewise, there's a lot of "little things" that a decent security company will take into consideration.
 
I strongly suggest you find a reputable local blind installer and have them come out to see the house DURING construction, or earlier to see the plans.  Pay them to consult on it if need be.  It'll be worth it to have input BEFORE drywall and trim have to get wrecked later.  Anything can be patched, of course, but it'd be a shame to miss the chance ahead of time.  Dare I say "the window of opportunity"?  ^_^
 
That and take a VERY close look at the framing plans to see how wiring would get installed for the windows.  I had plans... the framing said otherwise...  ooops.
 
Don't get me wrong, I love DIY efforts, but I had someone else do the security system and the blinds.  
 
 
Got it. :)  I'll run the plans by a local installer and see about getting some consultation and/or wiring during construction on the blinds (which will be awhile; demo on the existing house hasn't started yet).  The more I think about it and from what I've heard thus far, I'll probably also suggest we get an alarm company to run the security wires for us.
 
 
wkearney99 said:
Also check if you can get a secondary water meter.  Don't know if that's possible in your area.  Around here we pay for water & sewage combined.  I had an agricultural sub-meter installed that tracks outdoor use.  For that we only pay the water fee, not the per-gallon sewage as well.  Now, it'll be a few years before those savings offset the cost of installing it, but to me it's the principle of the thing.
 
I'll have to check with the city on this to see if they do something like that.  At a minimum I like Pete's idea of installing some personal meters to track usage.
 
pete_c said:
HVAC stuff today is very efficient.  Look for the best bang for the buck relating to endeavor whether it is zoned or not zoned  (well that and your water heater).  This is more related to infrastructure / efficiency stuff more than automation as I do and do not manage my Omnistat stuff.  Really just look at it more than anything (along with temperature and humidity levels).  I like the recirculating water for the showers stuff for instant hot water.
 
It's two zones (up/down) in the main house, and a unit for the garage apartment.  Garage apartment automation will come at a later date (just wiring it for now).  I'd love a slick Nest-like thermostat that I can tie into the Omni, but the last I checked with Nest they were not opening up for 3rd party control.
 
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