The New Smarthome Blog

[MikeB]

They have known about the paddles for about 12 months and the keypadlinc firmware for about 9 or more. They also know about the togglelinc problem for about 6 months or more.

They definitely seem slow about fixing issues, I can't argue that, however I believe paddle issue has only really come to pass over the past 3-6 months, and I know they have been replacing them for people who have issues (they've replaced a few for me). I'm not sure about the ToggleLinc issue, but I've seen people posting about that for only the past few months. I'm not saying NO ONE reported an issue previous to that, but probably not enough people for them to think it's a wide issue.

So are we really being unfair?? If they have a known problem they should replace the device. I have 16 right now (more all of the time) that have flicker or paddle problems. Plus I have one bad togglelinc and 6 or 7 bad keypdalincs. All need to be replaced but yet SH says they dont want to. The batch of 16 are useless and in warranty (but some not for long). The togglelinc is not a crisis, and the keypadlincs have limited functionality (and a few have the keypad lights that flicker with the mesh traffic which is sooooo annoying). They just dont want to eat all of the money but why should we. I had to buy a ton of extra's (trust me its about 12 or more) yet I still dont have all devices working right because THEY DONT.

I don't know why they won't replace them for you, to be honest it seems very odd because truly and honestly, I've returned my share of product under warranty and they've never given me a problem replacing them. When I call I am very firm and have narrowed down the problem enough to know it is a bad switch, however. If you're wishy-washy when you call, or haven't troubleshooted the issue fully, maybe they're harder to deal with - I'm not sure. But all electronics/computer companies I deal with are like that (and I deal with a lot), so I don't think SmartHome is alone in that regard.

I also don't know how the heck you have so much bad product, or how it built up for so long without you swapping them. I have had my fair share of bad stuff, but not nearly the amount you have.

I can tell you one thing - if I knew for certain all those items were bad, and they were under warranty, I would have replacements by now. I wouldn't stand for any crap, period.

[ SOme people may think I am being unfair but they are not standing behind their products. They will wait until the warranties expire before they come out with a fix and agree to exhange those in warranty.

I don't think you're being unfair, but I also don't think they are being malicious about the warranties. I think they are just truly this slow at dealing with these issues.

I feel bad for you, I really do, and I'm glad I'm not dealing with as many issues as you, or I'd be pulliing out what's left of my hair. Seeing all your posts and the ups and downs you have, I really truly feel you will NEVER be happy with Insteon. If I were you, I would bit the bullet, get replacements for all your bad switches, sell everything and move to another technology.

If more expensive products are not in your budget, then get your butt on the phone and DEMAND replacements. Threaten them with whatever you need to in order to get your replacements, but get your replacements. Install them, and keep your fingers crossed.

I think I finally realize why some people badmouth Insteon so badly - so many people really LOVE the idea of their product, and they are 80% of the way to being a fantastic prodouct, and people truly want them to get it right - and they're frustrated that they're not. For some reason, though, they can't get that last 20% right.

Many people ARE happy with the product, though. I'm one of them. I have my issues, but looking at the competing products I see that they all have their drawbacks. Now, I may have a different opinion 6 months from today, but for now I'm happy with my Insteon stuff and can't wait to see it evolve.

BTW - where are you located?

 

[Digger]

They have known about the paddles for about 12 months and the keypadlinc firmware for about 9 or more. They also know about the togglelinc problem for about 6 months or more.

They definitely seem slow about fixing issues, I can't argue that, however I believe paddle issue has only really come to pass over the past 3-6 months, and I know they have been replacing them for people who have issues (they've replaced a few for me). I'm not sure about the ToggleLinc issue, but I've seen people posting about that for only the past few months. I'm not saying NO ONE reported an issue previous to that, but probably not enough people for them to think it's a wide issue.

So are we really being unfair?? If they have a known problem they should replace the device. I have 16 right now (more all of the time) that have flicker or paddle problems. Plus I have one bad togglelinc and 6 or 7 bad keypdalincs. All need to be replaced but yet SH says they dont want to. The batch of 16 are useless and in warranty (but some not for long). The togglelinc is not a crisis, and the keypadlincs have limited functionality (and a few have the keypad lights that flicker with the mesh traffic which is sooooo annoying). They just dont want to eat all of the money but why should we. I had to buy a ton of extra's (trust me its about 12 or more) yet I still dont have all devices working right because THEY DONT.

I don't know why they won't replace them for you, to be honest it seems very odd because truly and honestly, I've returned my share of product under warranty and they've never given me a problem replacing them. When I call I am very firm and have narrowed down the problem enough to know it is a bad switch, however. If you're wishy-washy when you call, or haven't troubleshooted the issue fully, maybe they're harder to deal with - I'm not sure. But all electronics/computer companies I deal with are like that (and I deal with a lot), so I don't think SmartHome is alone in that regard.

I also don't know how the heck you have so much bad product, or how it built up for so long without you swapping them. I have had my fair share of bad stuff, but not nearly the amount you have.

I can tell you one thing - if I knew for certain all those items were bad, and they were under warranty, I would have replacements by now. I wouldn't stand for any crap, period.

[ SOme people may think I am being unfair but they are not standing behind their products. They will wait until the warranties expire before they come out with a fix and agree to exhange those in warranty.

I don't think you're being unfair, but I also don't think they are being malicious about the warranties. I think they are just truly this slow at dealing with these issues.

I feel bad for you, I really do, and I'm glad I'm not dealing with as many issues as you, or I'd be pulliing out what's left of my hair. Seeing all your posts and the ups and downs you have, I really truly feel you will NEVER be happy with Insteon. If I were you, I would bit the bullet, get replacements for all your bad switches, sell everything and move to another technology.

If more expensive products are not in your budget, then get your butt on the phone and DEMAND replacements. Threaten them with whatever you need to in order to get your replacements, but get your replacements. Install them, and keep your fingers crossed.

I think I finally realize why some people badmouth Insteon so badly - so many people really LOVE the idea of their product, and they are 80% of the way to being a fantastic prodouct, and people truly want them to get it right - and they're frustrated that they're not. For some reason, though, they can't get that last 20% right.

Many people ARE happy with the product, though. I'm one of them. I have my issues, but looking at the competing products I see that they all have their drawbacks. Now, I may have a different opinion 6 months from today, but for now I'm happy with my Insteon stuff and can't wait to see it evolve.

BTW - where are you located?

I am on Long Island.

I actually really like the products WHEN THEY WORK! They have some features that others dont. They are also the cheapest (and now I know why).

Why do I have so many. Because they keep telling me for months and months that they dont have a fix for the paddles (and its been almost a years since SHMike made an admission on their forum there was a problem). So they refuse to replace them saying the new ones will be just as bad (but they kept selling me new ones to replace the bad ones). I have 7 spare Icons new in the box, 5 spare V2 relays new in the box, a few V2 dimmers new in the box, 2 keypadlincs new in the box, and other misc spares.

Last Saturday Laurie M from SH promised me that I would be helped on Monday and they would gladly RMA every bad device. So Monday I emailed a list of all good and bad switches etc. They looked at it and reminded me that the new ones would have the same problems. They suggested I not swap them and wait for a few months longer to see IF they could come up with a fix. I have been waiting for months and warranties are expiring (they did say to forget the warranty they would deal with it but I cant trust them after the last ones).

I took one to work and sat down with a few friends who are also engineers and we took one apart to look at the switches at lunch one day. I emailed SH our opinions and got the "thanks no thanks" for the info.

So I kept pushing them and they said they would refund me but not full price. So I said forget it swap them and then they stopped talking. Today I put some strong posts here and on their forum and they said..... oh we didnt RMA them? We will try to do it next week.

So I have had it with them.

 

[MikeB]

They may not have a superior designed paddle out, but not EVERY switch has a bad paddle.

Call up tomorrow, and get ALL your bad switches replaced. Demand it.

I took one to work and sat down with a few friends who are also engineers and we took one apart to look at the switches at lunch one day. I emailed SH our opinions and got the "thanks no thanks" for the info.

People don't like to be told how to do their job. If you want to change things, fill out an application.

 

[sloop]

People don't like to be told how to do their job. If you want to change things, fill out an application.

especially when they can't do it correctly themselves

 

[bradsjm]

I think that's a bit harsh considering I've never heard of Smarthome not replacing a device that had a bug fixed under warranty.

I live in hope. Extended messaging is part of the INSTEON specifications and those products not implementing it IMHO are broken and non-compliant. I was informed now that the new PLM, AccessLinc and RemoteLinc all support extended messaging that "revised" products that support extended messages are underway (in regards to the SwitchLinc's, KeypadLinc's etc.) but I'm not holding my breath that they'll just swap them all out (after all, they could just have swapped out the existing SignaLinc instead of introducing a new product) but I'm open to being pleasantly suprised

Don't get me wrong, I do love INSTEON, the speed and flexibility is great but the company has made mistakes and doesn't like to come clean.

Keeping on topic here, I'd love to see some blogs that have honest posts about known issues and reminders that SmartHome will swap them out but that would require a culture change by management from what I can see still.

 

[MikeB]

I live in hope. Extended messaging is part of the INSTEON specifications and those products not implementing it IMHO are broken and non-compliant. I was informed now that the new PLM, AccessLinc and RemoteLinc all support extended messaging that "revised" products that support extended messages are underway (in regards to the SwitchLinc's, KeypadLinc's etc.) but I'm not holding my breath that they'll just swap them all out (after all, they could just have swapped out the existing SignaLinc instead of introducing a new product) but I'm open to being pleasantly suprised

Not EVERY Insteon device supports extended messaging, nor do they have to. Extended messaging is a subset of the protocol, not a requirement for all devices. What software supports extended messaging?

I know it sucks when things change and better products come out, but that's life.

 

[Digger]

Author Topic Page: 1 2 3 of 3
BritInVA
New Member



USA
24 Posts
Posted - 12/08/2006 : 11:27:07 AM
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Using Insteon KeypadLinc V2 Dimmer in 8-Button mode with button "A" controlling the load.

Trying to create a situation where when using "A" light is on Full but using button "D" to create a scene where the load is on 10%, with Rope Light and Star Ceiling On.

My understanding is that with the KeypadLink the buttoninherits the current On-Level and Ramp Rate.

My seteps were.
- Adjust load via "A" to be On 10% and press Set
- Link "D" to "A"
- Link "D" to SwitchLink V2 Dimmer controlling Rope Light
- Link "D" to ToggleLinc V2 Relay controlling star ceiling

Confirmed that "D" operates as required.

Wated 10 mins (manual says wait at least 4 mins)

Adjust load via "A" to be On 100% and press Set

Impact is that when I select "A" or "D" the load lights on Full (100%).

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,
Mark


cmhardwick
Senior Member



249 Posts
Posted - 12/09/2006 : 12:37:57 PM
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There's a "flaw" in the KPL firmware so that the ONLY setting for the load when controlled by another button on the KPL is 100%. You can't adjust the ramprate or level so that load is 100, button 3 is 75%, 4 = 50%, etc. I don't remember if this is being addressed in future versions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cicero
New to home auto and driving my wife CRAZY!! (well, not new to driving her crazy, but you know what I mean)


BritInVA
New Member



USA
24 Posts
Posted - 12/09/2006 : 1:28:19 PM
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Great!

If I had of known about this I could have wired something else to the KPL and wired these sconces to a SWL. But thats not an option now

Mike - Is there anything that can be done? Does this mean I cannot create a scene using KPL attached loads with varying On-Levels? If not when bug fixed do I have to buy a new KPL or is there a way to upgrade formware?

Cmhardwick - Thanks for the reply.


cmhardwick
Senior Member



249 Posts
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 11:56:08 AM
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no problem. I can answer that latter part of your comment to Mike. When the firmware is upgraded/fixed, you have to swap out the hardware. No firmware updates are possible in the field.
One option, can you put InLineLincs behind the sconces with NO local load on the KPL? That way you could link the load button to the inlines and control them at one level, and setup the scenes for the other buttons with individual dim levels because they aren't the load of that KPL.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cicero
New to home auto and driving my wife CRAZY!! (well, not new to driving her crazy, but you know what I mean)


Tfitzpatri8
Moderator



USA
686 Posts
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 1:33:30 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by cmhardwick

no problem. I can answer that latter part of your comment to Mike. When the firmware is upgraded/fixed, you have to swap out the hardware. No firmware updates are possible in the field.
One option, can you put InLineLincs behind the sconces with NO local load on the KPL? That way you could link the load button to the inlines and control them at one level, and setup the scenes for the other buttons with individual dim levels because they aren't the load of that KPL.

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I don't have one of those revision keypads, so can you check something for me? If you create the links on the keypad, then view them with HouseLinc, will HL enable you to edit the dim % on the links and save changes to network to provide this feature?

Tom


BritInVA
New Member



USA
24 Posts
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 1:33:52 PM
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Cmhardwick - Thanks for suggestion. Unfortunatly I don't think using a 'In-LineLinc Dimmer' is going to be possible. I don't think it will fit into the back box of the first sconce (I'll have to check). Putting additional boxes in to house this is not an option also.....a lot of time and money has been spent of the finish of this room.

This is quite a major limitation of this unit


cmhardwick
Senior Member



249 Posts
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 05:57:34 AM
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Tom, I don't have HL, I use powerhome. I don't think it works no matter how you try to set it.

As to the inlines, I completely understand with the room in the boxes. Often they are cramped! and even if there SHOULD be enough room, depending on how much extra length wire was crammed in, you still might not be able to fit it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cicero
New to home auto and driving my wife CRAZY!! (well, not new to driving her crazy, but you know what I mean)

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Edited by - cmhardwick on 12/11/2006 05:59:13 AM


mike
Administrator



USA
1131 Posts
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 09:04:24 AM
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We are currently still testing the updated firmware internally. I will provide a date when it ships once I have the information.

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SmartLabsMike
INSTEON - Linking Everything to Everything Else.
http://www.insteon.net


BritInVA
New Member



USA
24 Posts
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 09:24:31 AM
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Mike - when the firmware is updated can the KPL's be swapped or do I have to buy new ones?

Cheers,
Mark


mike
Administrator



USA
1131 Posts
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 09:57:11 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BritInVA

Mike - when the firmware is updated can the KPL's be swapped or do I have to buy new ones?

Cheers,
Mark

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In this case they can be swapped.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SmartLabsMike
INSTEON - Linking Everything to Everything Else.
http://www.insteon.net

Here Mike says all keypadlincs will need to be swapped if you want it to work the way it was supposed to. That was 6 months ago and no fix available yet. I bet they added this to production and are waiting for warraties to die.

 

[rocco]

Not EVERY Insteon device supports extended messaging, nor do they have to. Extended messaging is a subset of the protocol, not a requirement for all devices.

Hmmm . . . Where does this come from?

I have never found a reference to optional features in the Insteon specifications (which is a good thing). Matter of fact, on page 6, in a table listing "the main features of INSTEON", extended messages are listed under the column "Specification".

Also, as far as I know, extended messaging was in every Insteon device manufactured by SmartHome. It simply didn't work correctly in early devices. It was always intended to be the method used to preform linking and to download SALad applications.

 

[Digger]

Not EVERY Insteon device supports extended messaging, nor do they have to. Extended messaging is a subset of the protocol, not a requirement for all devices.

Hmmm . . . Where does this come from?

I have never found a reference to optional features in the Insteon specifications (which is a good thing). Matter of fact, on page 6, in a table listing "the main features of INSTEON", extended messages are listed under the column "Specification".

Also, as far as I know, extended messaging was in every Insteon device manufactured by SmartHome. It simply didn't work correctly in early devices. It was always intended to be the method used to preform linking and to download SALad applications.

I think you are correct but others may disagree. I know someone involved with the development and he said it was always there but never worked correctly until recent firmware releases.

 

[MikeB]

I have never found a reference to optional features in the Insteon specifications (which is a good thing). Matter of fact, on page 6, in a table listing "the main features of INSTEON", extended messages are listed under the column "Specification".

Also, as far as I know, extended messaging was in every Insteon device manufactured by SmartHome. It simply didn't work correctly in early devices. It was always intended to be the method used to preform linking and to download SALad applications.

I was always under the impression it was optional. Just like RF is in the specs, but no devices (other than the SignalLinc) used it until now. I could be wrong, but that was my impression.

What software uses extended messaging?

 

[WayneW]

Not EVERY Insteon device supports extended messaging, nor do they have to. Extended messaging is a subset of the protocol, not a requirement for all devices. What software supports extended messaging?

Doesn't every device need to support extended messaging if they are supposed to do the simulcasting/repeating? Of course I guess it is possible that a device could relay a command that it cannot decipher itself?

 

[rocco]

. . . Of course I guess it is possible that a device could relay a command that it cannot decipher itself?

At a minimum, a device would have to be capable of verifying the CRC before relaying the message. Imagine the mess that could occur if devices were allowed to simulcast bad packets on top of the good packets.

 

[PeterW]

. . . Of course I guess it is possible that a device could relay a command that it cannot decipher itself?

At a minimum, a device would have to be capable of verifying the CRC before relaying the message. Imagine the mess that could occur if devices were allowed to simulcast bad packets on top of the good packets.

The only thing that I could think of that would be worse, would be if all of the "old" devices that have been shipped since Day 1 turned out to actually understand extended messaging after all and would attempt to simulcast them (with potential corruption)..... In this scenario, adding 'new' or 'fixed' devices would be futile because the old ones would simulcast the bad info and corrupt the transmissions of the 'good' devices.

Why is extended messaging a big deal? It is the difference between a large network scan that takes an hour versus a network scan that takes a minute or so. With working extended messaging, one could download the link database of each device in seconds rather than minutes.

 

[Lwong]

We are migrating the current RSS feed to the blog to make it easier for readers to access the information. Please let us know what other information you want to see on the blog.
Thanks!

Well, that would explain it then. Might have been worth stating that up front

Now I can tell you why this is worse than the old feed, that is because the blog RSS feed only provides snippets of the text, and the old RSS feed provided the full rich media content. If I subscribe to a blog I want the FULL text so I'm afraid I've immediately unsubscribed from the new one. Maybe you'll consider changing this though.

Now, as for content, as has been stated, try and get more creative than just posting the product blurb. Blogs need to have an identity, one or more people and personalities behind them. Right now, this one has none. It is completely devoid of that. Even the posts are posted by a Mr. "smarthomeblog". Can't get more anonymous and bland than that!

Hi all,

Thanks for all the feedback. The blog is just another vehicle to get the same information you would get from the RSS feed. Keep in mind that the RSS Feed is not going away. If you are subscribed to the current feed, simply sign up for the feed on the Blog to get same information on new product announcements, deals and sales.

Admittedly, the BLOG is the same exact information, but we are trying to get some editorial/commentary content on there.

Thanks again everybody.

 

[sloop]

well i found another place to post my feedback - home depot sells insteon - they allow people to rate and review the products they sell - i added mine earlier in the week but it is not posted yet

i guess anyone that has an opinion could add their rating and review