Thinking of not doing speaker wire to control

[dpilati]

I realize the recommendation to do cat-5 to in-wall stereo control and swing the speaker wire nearby. The problem is that there are always (at least in my house) HV wires nearby - so you are forced to break the "rules" regarding HV and LV wires. The house is fairly big so it also adds to the length of speaker wire - sometimes it really adds a lot of length.

I have pretty much ruled out A-bus and all the options I am looking at are just cat-5 to the controls.

So the HV is finishing up tomorrow so I need some advice ... quickly.

 

[nightwalker]

I realize the recommendation to do cat-5 to in-wall stereo control and swing the speaker wire nearby. The problem is that there are always (at least in my house) HV wires nearby - so you are forced to break the "rules" regarding HV and LV wires. The house is fairly big so it also adds to the length of speaker wire - sometimes it really adds a lot of length.

I have pretty much ruled out A-bus and all the options I am looking at are just cat-5 to the controls.

So the HV is finishing up tomorrow so I need some advice ... quickly.

You still have to get speaker wire back to the equipment room, unless you're using strictly Abus and you said you ruled that out. Since you have to get speaker wire back to the equipment room and to speaker locations it doesn't take that much more to swing it through a wall plate in each room. Your best bet and most flexible to cover most audio systems and have a chance to upgrade at a later date is cat5+ and 16/4 speaker wire to the wall plate in each room and 16/2 to each speaker location in that room or 16.4 if you're going to use dual voice coils instead of stereo.

As far as keeping HS and LV apart, while the rules were written with optimum conditions, and we all know that never happens. Just keep them apart as much as possible. What you don't want to do is run them together for long runs.

 

[dpilati]

I realize the recommendation to do cat-5 to in-wall stereo control and swing the speaker wire nearby. The problem is that there are always (at least in my house) HV wires nearby - so you are forced to break the "rules" regarding HV and LV wires. The house is fairly big so it also adds to the length of speaker wire - sometimes it really adds a lot of length.

I have pretty much ruled out A-bus and all the options I am looking at are just cat-5 to the controls.

So the HV is finishing up tomorrow so I need some advice ... quickly.

You still have to get speaker wire back to the equipment room, unless you're using strictly Abus and you said you ruled that out. Since you have to get speaker wire back to the equipment room and to speaker locations it doesn't take that much more to swing it through a wall plate in each room. Your best bet and most flexible to cover most audio systems and have a chance to upgrade at a later date is cat5+ and 16/4 speaker wire to the wall plate in each room and 16/2 to each speaker location in that room or 16.4 if you're going to use dual voice coils instead of stereo.

As far as keeping HS and LV apart, while the rules were written with optimum conditions, and we all know that never happens. Just keep them apart as much as possible. What you don't want to do is run them together for long runs.

Believe it or not - it almost doubles the length of speaker wire to put in at the control - because of places I can't go through with the wire (even going back to equipment room). If I know I am doing russound CAA66 ... for example ... why put the speaker wire at the control? I realize I am just looking for someone to agree with me to save me some wire and time, but I just don't see the point it if you are not going to use it. Who actually needs speaker wire at the control other than A-bus or just simple volume controls.

 

[Steve]

I am far from an audio wizard but I would tend to agree with you. If you are fairly certain you are going to use a distributed audio system I would just run Cat5 to the control area and a good quality speaker wire to where the speakers will be. There are several very good systems that are wired that way and even if you decided to pull the CAV and replace it with something else, the wiring would be the same. Sure looping the wire by the control would 'future proof' but I just think there is enough of a future in DA systems to not worry about it. I'm sure many others would disagree but if you are already leaning in that direction, I would agree with you.

 

[mustangcoupe]

The only reason I would disagree would be resale. You don't want something you do now (and had a choice to do) during the building phase to hurt the resale of your home later.

 

[AceCannon]

I fully intended to loop all the speakers wires through the control locations, but when the rubber hit the road - all the locations did not get that treatment (planning on Nuvo GC).

I had some subcontractors helping me with wire runs, paid by the hour. We would have had to stop to buy more wire, and it was significantly longer runs to go through the keypad locations. So I skipped it for most locations.

 

[charliebarns]

I'm doing a Nuvo GC also, but I wanted to make sure I covered any possible future upgrades. I looped two feet of 16/4 behind each keypad location before it went up to the speakers. Yes it was more work and more material, but now I'll never have to worry if I decide to upgrade.

CB

 

[sic0048]

I realize the recommendation to do cat-5 to in-wall stereo control and swing the speaker wire nearby. The problem is that there are always (at least in my house) HV wires nearby - so you are forced to break the "rules" regarding HV and LV wires. The house is fairly big so it also adds to the length of speaker wire - sometimes it really adds a lot of length.

I have pretty much ruled out A-bus and all the options I am looking at are just cat-5 to the controls.

So the HV is finishing up tomorrow so I need some advice ... quickly.

You still have to get speaker wire back to the equipment room, unless you're using strictly Abus and you said you ruled that out. Since you have to get speaker wire back to the equipment room and to speaker locations it doesn't take that much more to swing it through a wall plate in each room. Your best bet and most flexible to cover most audio systems and have a chance to upgrade at a later date is cat5+ and 16/4 speaker wire to the wall plate in each room and 16/2 to each speaker location in that room or 16.4 if you're going to use dual voice coils instead of stereo.

As far as keeping HS and LV apart, while the rules were written with optimum conditions, and we all know that never happens. Just keep them apart as much as possible. What you don't want to do is run them together for long runs.

Believe it or not - it almost doubles the length of speaker wire to put in at the control - because of places I can't go through with the wire (even going back to equipment room). If I know I am doing russound CAA66 ... for example ... why put the speaker wire at the control? I realize I am just looking for someone to agree with me to save me some wire and time, but I just don't see the point it if you are not going to use it. Who actually needs speaker wire at the control other than A-bus or just simple volume controls.

I think nightwalker misunderstood (I did as well) your original statement. When I first read it, I thought you were arguing the just run the speaker wire back to the volume/keypad and not back to the control room. In fact, you are asking if it is OK to simply run the wire directly from the speaker locations to the control room and bypass the loop of wire behind the keypad.

If you have made your decision as to which whole house system you are going to use, then I think the decision to skip the extra wire loop is fine. Obviously it will limit your choices in the future, but most systems today use cat5e to the keypad and speaker wire directly to the unit. So you will still have a lot of choices available.

 

[nightwalker]

There are a couple of reasons to loop through the control point in the rooms.
1 Makes the system more flexible on what equipment may be coming down the road.
2 Should you want to make any of those zones a sub zone you will need a local volume control.
3 I hear a lot of "I expect to, Planning on, fairly certain, etc", all those are places that will get you in trouble if you change your mind now or in the future, be it for any reason, price, equipment availability, ease of installation, whatever.

I just don't want you to get caught short later as things change. I've seen it happen way to many times. Having to tear out drywall in just one room later to add wire will more than cover the cost of any extra wire you might have to use. The most inexpensive part of the job is no place to start skimping.

 

[broconne]

I realize the recommendation to do cat-5 to in-wall stereo control and swing the speaker wire nearby. The problem is that there are always (at least in my house) HV wires nearby - so you are forced to break the "rules" regarding HV and LV wires. The house is fairly big so it also adds to the length of speaker wire - sometimes it really adds a lot of length.

I have pretty much ruled out A-bus and all the options I am looking at are just cat-5 to the controls.

So the HV is finishing up tomorrow so I need some advice ... quickly.

You still have to get speaker wire back to the equipment room, unless you're using strictly Abus and you said you ruled that out. Since you have to get speaker wire back to the equipment room and to speaker locations it doesn't take that much more to swing it through a wall plate in each room. Your best bet and most flexible to cover most audio systems and have a chance to upgrade at a later date is cat5+ and 16/4 speaker wire to the wall plate in each room and 16/2 to each speaker location in that room or 16.4 if you're going to use dual voice coils instead of stereo.

As far as keeping HS and LV apart, while the rules were written with optimum conditions, and we all know that never happens. Just keep them apart as much as possible. What you don't want to do is run them together for long runs.

Believe it or not - it almost doubles the length of speaker wire to put in at the control - because of places I can't go through with the wire (even going back to equipment room). If I know I am doing russound CAA66 ... for example ... why put the speaker wire at the control? I realize I am just looking for someone to agree with me to save me some wire and time, but I just don't see the point it if you are not going to use it. Who actually needs speaker wire at the control other than A-bus or just simple volume controls.

I think nightwalker misunderstood (I did as well) your original statement. When I first read it, I thought you were arguing the just run the speaker wire back to the volume/keypad and not back to the control room. In fact, you are asking if it is OK to simply run the wire directly from the speaker locations to the control room and bypass the loop of wire behind the keypad.

If you have made your decision as to which whole house system you are going to use, then I think the decision to skip the extra wire loop is fine. Obviously it will limit your choices in the future, but most systems today use cat5e to the keypad and speaker wire directly to the unit. So you will still have a lot of choices available.

Only reason to run the speaker wire to the keypads would be so you could replace it with a "dumb" system when you move.

 

[Kevin L]

I built a big house (for me, anyway) in 2007 with 3700' under air. Some of the runs were long (like three 75' HDMI cables) and I decided with the distributed AV I would run just Cat-5 to the keypads and 16/4 or 16/2 to the speakers (most are dual voice coils) homerunned to the media closet. I have 14 speaker locations with 12 zones (two are doubled up). I couldn't imagine when I'd ever swap out from a distributed system to local. Each zone can choose its own source and control its own volume. There are plenty of systems I could swap to if I ever wanted to change. I'm using two Proficient M6 units and have been very happy with them.

As far as resale, I wouldn't worry about it. I think too many people get hung up on resale value. If you talk to realtors, they'll tell you a whole-house audio system will add appeal to some buyers, but adds virtually nothing to the market value. Do what you want to do and save the money on wiring by skipping the speaker wire to the keypads.

Kevin

 

[dpilati]

Looks like almost a 50/50.

Here is a corollary. I am still trying to figure what a "subzone" is. Example - downstairs the kitchen, great room and dining room are all basically joined and would not ever listen to separate music. But I still would want to just turn 1 of the 3 on and, at least once to calibrate, be able to independently control volume. Would 2 of these be subzones? I know it probably depends on the amp but I'd love some idea of what a subzone really is. I feel like I am stuck with my 8 or 9 zones given where I want music but it seems like I could do the subzone thing and get down to a 6 zone amp.

I have looked through CAA6 documentation and can't easily figure what a subzone lets me do - ie control volume and on/off - which is what I want. And if that would work - do I wire it differently? I here talk about an a-bus subzone (which would be fine) that is cheaper. Then I would need the speaker wires at the keypad.....

 

[Kevin L]

I have an open floor plan encompassing my Kitchen, Living Room, Dining Room, and Family Room. In that area, I have one dual-voicecoil speaker in the Kitchen, another in the Living/Dining Room area, and another in the Family Room. The Kitchen and Living/Dining are in the same zone and are on at the same time. I installed a keypad in the Kitchen and another in the Living/Dining. They both control the same zone, but this setup lets me control the zone from either area.

The Family Room is its own zone with its own dedicated keypad. The Proficient M6 (and M4) is programmable through an interface that is purchased separately and downloadable software. It allows you to program many features in the keypads, including those you would like to be controlled by another keypad.

Kevin

 

[nightwalker]

A sub zone is an offshoot of a main zone. One that you want independent volume control in but don't necessarily need independent source selection. For an example a master bedroom with a master bath as a sub zone. A house that's setup with large open areas would also benefit. Something like a kitchen, dining area, and living room all open, would benefit from sub zones. While the source would be the same volume could be controlled independently in those areas. This may not seem like a big deal but say you're having a cocktail party, you want music but you don't want it to be overpowering so conversation is stifled. With one single zone you get music yes but you get music louder where the speakers are and softer further away. With independently controlled sub zones you could set the volume to soft everywhere, still audible but not over powering. After the party you go back to music in the area you in.

 

[dpilati]

A sub zone is an offshoot of a main zone. One that you want independent volume control in but don't necessarily need independent source selection. For an example a master bedroom with a master bath as a sub zone. A house that's setup with large open areas would also benefit. Something like a kitchen, dining area, and living room all open, would benefit from sub zones. While the source would be the same volume could be controlled independently in those areas. This may not seem like a big deal but say you're having a cocktail party, you want music but you don't want it to be overpowering so conversation is stifled. With one single zone you get music yes but you get music louder where the speakers are and softer further away. With independently controlled sub zones you could set the volume to soft everywhere, still audible but not over powering. After the party you go back to music in the area you in.

That is what I was thinking. Now how are they wired. For Russound - people refer to an a-bus subzone. That would make me think on a subzone, I would do a-bus - ie speaker wire from control to speakers.