Time if up for Whole House Audio Selection

I just picked up a nuvo amp essentia, for $410 on ebay. I agree with others, you dont want to be standing around flipping through songs so having those keypads in most rooms isnt a big deal. My plan is to control mine via CQC. CQC can drive my MP3s or connect the nuvo to one of the XM channels via my directv box.

The guy that sold me my amp supposedly has a few more. that might be worth checking out.



With Nuvo are you tied into a special line of keypads related to that a unit?

i.e. can i get the Essentia but still get the bigger OLED keypads?

I like the idea of the energy efficeint Essentiate unit... if 40 watts per zone (2 channels of 20W) sufficent for general use? We're not talking massive parties here just listing around the house while reading or cooking, etc.??

I am actually not sure who many keypads i really want since i think remote is much better (who gets of the couch the change song/volume anymore?).

It seems all these units ship with all the keypads..thats too bad since i wouldnt mind one with only 1 or no keypads at all but a lot cheaper...

Trying to decide between Concerto / Grand Concerto and Essentia, i know they have different keypads and different power rating...anything else shockingly different?
 
My understanding is that CQC can pipe music metadata directly into the Grand Concerto, then any zone listening to that source will see the same metadata for the song. It sounds kludgey, but one would assume that it would work every time once configured correctly.
 
With Nuvo are you tied into a special line of keypads related to that a unit?

i.e. can i get the Essentia but still get the bigger OLED keypads?

I like the idea of the energy efficeint Essentiate unit... if 40 watts per zone (2 channels of 20W) sufficent for general use? We're not talking massive parties here just listing around the house while reading or cooking, etc.??

I am actually not sure who many keypads i really want since i think remote is much better (who gets of the couch the change song/volume anymore?).

It seems all these units ship with all the keypads..thats too bad since i wouldnt mind one with only 1 or no keypads at all but a lot cheaper...

Trying to decide between Concerto / Grand Concerto and Essentia, i know they have different keypads and different power rating...anything else shockingly different?

Nuvo does sell just the Grand Essentia and the Grand Concerto with no keypads. The NV-E6M and the NV-I8GM. If you add an "S" to those you then it is the system with keypads.

Price wise you would be better off getting the system and seling any extra keypads you dont want since the systems are much more cost effective.
 
3- Most announcement stuff, even within the multizone audio amps from Russound etc, is accomplished through speaker line switching (some functions might use source switching). If all of your speakers are home run to a central location it is pretty easy to use your own relays to switch a zones speakers from the music system to the Elk or HA Computer for announcements. You will of course have to add logic to your announcement events to activate the relays during the announcement. Another advantage of this method is that it is easy to to implement relay driven speaker muting as well. In my system I have my stargate operate relays for announcements and also to mute the speakers when you pick up a phone in that zone. My announcements from Stargate, HA PC, Elk, etc, go to a Radio Shack PA amp which in turn feeds the speakers though the relays.

Hi Mike,

I think some people are using the paging feauture of the russound and Nuvo systems, but i suppose your relay method could work as well.

When you use the relays to switch the speakers from one source (e.g. Nuvo Grand Concerto) to the announcements (single amp driving a whole bunch of speakers) don't you get nasty 'pops' or other noises when the contacts on the relay engage?

If i could install a Nuvo Grand Concerto without any keypads, then connect a Squeezebox receiver as one of the sources and use CQC to capture the squeezebox events and somehow pass them onto the Concerto.....then...i'd probably be a few months down the road....

For now i think i'm going to tell the builder to run the speaker wire and cat5 to a future keypad location, but just put a loop in the cable there and don't put a box in the wall. This gives me several more months to sort out a good solution and the only thing lost is that i have to cut the holes myself IF i want keypads. THis ofcourse assuming i can find the wires in the wall.....i'll take good pictures...

I assume a dremel tool of some sort will work well to cut out a LV box hole in the sheetrock.

This thread couldn't be any more timely. I'm in the same planning stage and need to get the pre-wire plans completed shortly.

Mavric:

Your planned wiring approach sounds like a very good idea. I'd been debating between home-running the speaker wire or not, but the excellent points Mike raise makes it clear that I need to do it. I definitely want to leave myself open to the possibility of automation announcements, etc. I could only think of one downside: having a local source in the room that I might like to play out the in-ceiling speakers (e.g. PC game, etc).

The simplest approach would be to run from the speaker wire down to the main gang box near the floor (where all the data, coax, etc. come in) so that I could split the wire and have a switch to alternate between local and central input. Hmm... impedance problems? Switch near the floor? Yuk! Anyway, this sounds a bit crap as switching to local mode isolates the speakers from home automation announcements. Is the only way to keep that functionality to home run the local audio feed (more speaker wire... ouch... getting expensive) or home run it digitally using CAT5 to feed it to the central amp somehow? How well would this work in terms of delay?

As a centralised alternative, did you see Marbles_00's (over on avsforum.com) setup? When I came across it, well it sounded very close to exactly what I was hoping to do. He describes it on his site: http://sites.google.com/site/maycreates/music-server . The general idea is that he uses a PC with a couple of sound cards to feed into some multi-zone amps that then lead off to the various speakers throughout the house. Conceptually, this sounds perfect as everything can be switched in software. There are a few concerns I have with the system that I would like to try and address when I'm that far along, but at least I know I'm on the right track in terms of pre-wiring.

Regarding control, yeah you're both right... I hadn't stopped to think about it long enough, but having to walk to an in wall panel to do stuff seems a bit poor now that you mention it. Nevertheless, the CAT5 run to accommodate it still makes sense to me should that prove to be unavoidable, but more likely is that it would be used to run an IR eye down to the central location. Still leaves me without visual feedback though. My brain hurts now.

Paul
 
5- Squeezeboxes do not contain amplifiers so you need to think about what you will use to power your zones. You can either use local systems in each room (messy but allows local FM tuners, CD players, iPod docks etc) or Zone amps that come on when they see a signal (gives you access to your music server, music services like Rhapsody, and Internet radio but no local sources) If you put all your amps in a central location you have to think about how you would get the line level audio from each player to it's remote amp. If you go with local amps you have to think about where the announcement relays will go and what you need to run for announcement audio lines and announcement relay control lines. Another option is to keep everything centralized and use Duet controllers in each zone. which is the cleanest because there is nothing in the room but an LCD remote and the speakers. I have not tried a Duet yet so I dont't have any feedback for you on that approach. With this you lose the nice displays in each room but maybe that is not a priority for you. (Everyone in my house loves the weather displays on my Squeezeboxes and if I ever removed them I would probably be kicked out of the house!)

Mike: Would you mind elaborating a bit on your squeezebox setup? As your squeezeboxes are distributed throughout the house, do you have local amps or a single central multi-amp? If central, how have you addressed running the signal from the squeezeboxes to the amps that you mention? Now I start to show my newbie colours... what is the cable type for RCA cables? Is it just regular speaker wire with RCA connectors? So a lengthy run would need at least 16 AWG then I assume?! Could CAT5 or RG6 coax be used to carry the signal digitally (directly out the squeeze's digital coax output) down to the central location?! Hmm, then what? I'd need an amp with digital input... not even checked that out yet. Sigh... my poor brain, it hurts so much. ;)

As I said in my previous post, centrally locating the amps seems like the safer route. I don't like the idea of having to consider running wire for relays and the like... too scary... too much extra to figure out for now.

So do the squeezeboxes offer you home automation capabilities? You mentioned that the server displays weather and other goodies. But what about other capabilities like initiating events? Does the squeeze server support shooting off events (relayed from a squeezebox) to automation servers, etc.? This would be rather exciting.

Paul
 
I could only think of one downside: having a local source in the room that I might like to play out the in-ceiling speakers (e.g. PC game, etc).

The simplest approach would be to run from the speaker wire down to the main gang box near the floor (where all the data, coax, etc. come in) so that I could split the wire and have a switch to alternate between local and central input. Hmm... impedance problems? Switch near the floor? Yuk! Anyway, this sounds a bit crap as switching to local mode isolates the speakers from home automation announcements. Is the only way to keep that functionality to home run the local audio feed (more speaker wire... ouch... getting expensive) or home run it digitally using CAT5 to feed it to the central amp somehow? How well would this work in terms of delay?

I am about to do the LV wiring in my new contruction in the next 1 or 2 weeks. I decided long ago that all the equipment would be centralized (huge WAF for me, at least). So my solution to local sources in individual rooms is to have a "local AV input" wallplate in those areas so I can plug in a game console (or whatever) and have it run back to the central location where it will be treated as any other source. For simplicity, these locations will have 3 cat5e runs - that's it. This should allow pretty much any type of signal to be passed using baluns, plus RS-232 / IR / ethernet if I get freaky.
 
Just curious, but do the speakers loop anywhere locally before heading out to the central equipment room? Extra CAT5's, yeah the simplicity is appealing, but I've not had a chance to play around with baluns yet. Do they introduce any delay, degradation... or is that just more of my crazy talk?! ;)
 
5- Squeezeboxes do not contain amplifiers so you need to think about what you will use to power your zones. You can either use local systems in each room (messy but allows local FM tuners, CD players, iPod docks etc) or Zone amps that come on when they see a signal (gives you access to your music server, music services like Rhapsody, and Internet radio but no local sources) If you put all your amps in a central location you have to think about how you would get the line level audio from each player to it's remote amp. If you go with local amps you have to think about where the announcement relays will go and what you need to run for announcement audio lines and announcement relay control lines. Another option is to keep everything centralized and use Duet controllers in each zone. which is the cleanest because there is nothing in the room but an LCD remote and the speakers. I have not tried a Duet yet so I dont't have any feedback for you on that approach. With this you lose the nice displays in each room but maybe that is not a priority for you. (Everyone in my house loves the weather displays on my Squeezeboxes and if I ever removed them I would probably be kicked out of the house!)

Mike: Would you mind elaborating a bit on your squeezebox setup? As your squeezeboxes are distributed throughout the house, do you have local amps or a single central multi-amp? If central, how have you addressed running the signal from the squeezeboxes to the amps that you mention? Now I start to show my newbie colours... what is the cable type for RCA cables? Is it just regular speaker wire with RCA connectors? So a lengthy run would need at least 16 AWG then I assume?! Could CAT5 or RG6 coax be used to carry the signal digitally (directly out the squeeze's digital coax output) down to the central location?! Hmm, then what? I'd need an amp with digital input... not even checked that out yet. Sigh... my poor brain, it hurts so much. ;)

As I said in my previous post, centrally locating the amps seems like the safer route. I don't like the idea of having to consider running wire for relays and the like... too scary... too much extra to figure out for now.

So do the squeezeboxes offer you home automation capabilities? You mentioned that the server displays weather and other goodies. But what about other capabilities like initiating events? Does the squeeze server support shooting off events (relayed from a squeezebox) to automation servers, etc.? This would be rather exciting.

Paul

Paul, you are touching on a lot of different topics and they probably need to be separated a bit.

There are 2 major ways to do distributed audio: The first method is to have centralized source equipment (music server, internet radio, CD changer, terrestrial or satellite tuner, etc.), and centralized amplifiers. These systems require both data cabling to remote controls (keypads) and audio cabling to the remote speakers. These are the NuVo and Russound type systems so often discussed here.

The second method is to have a centralized music repository and distribute the music digitally to source equipment and amplifiers located in each listening area. In these systems all cabling is local except the network connection and even that is often handled via WiFi. This is the method used by systems like Sonos and the Logitech Squeezeboxes.

The first method is neater because it avoids a lot of clutter from equipment in each listening area and makes it simple to control the entire system from a central location. The disadvantages are that control is generally from a wall keypad rather than from the actual listening position. also Album/track type meta-data information is usually limited depending on what is supported by the proprietary keypad protocol but this is not usually an issue since it is generally not large enough to be readable from the listening area anyway. Some systems offer a larger LCD display to show pictures of album covers as a song plays. I can't speak to the value of that since I never used to stare at my album covers back when I was playing my music from LPs so I don't know why I would want to do that now. This method is best done in new contruction because it involves a lot of wiring that could be difficult after the walls are closed. It is usually easy to add whole house announcements tothese systems by utilizing special inputs at the central amplifier.

The second method is more modular but but requires space for local components. Using the Squeezeboxes as examples, a typical room will consist of a squeezebox player and a pair of powered speakers. The player outputs sound at line level (same as a tape deck or tuner) and must be connected to powered speakers or a local amplifier or receiver driving regular speakers. While flexible this requires a lot more planning when using built-in speakers because you have to decide where the amplifier will be (hidden in a closet? Visible in the room? In a central location?). The planning is further complicated because the players come as either units with a local display and normal IR remote OR a unit with no display and a WiFi remote with LCD display in the remote.

You could easily put a multi-zone amp (or stack of regular amps) in a central location and have each amp/zone fed by a Squeezebox Receiver. You then have Some number of Squeezebox controllers (the WiFi remotes) in strategic listening areas and use them to control the system just as you would a using the keypad in the first method (except you have a lot more information available and a lot more functions you can control).

You could also stick a player with a display connected to powered bookshelf speakers (I reccomend AudioEngine a5's) and control them locally with an IR remote. You can also do any combination of these and the WiFi controller still controls everything.

The down side of this system (besides the complexity of planning it) is that it is harder to incorporate whole house announcements. If you are mainly using the central amp and WiFi contoller configuration you can take advantage of the fact that all of the speaker wires come together in one place to set something up using relays but if you do not have a comfort level with that type of work then I would would not want to talk you into going this way. Also these systems are good for playing from music servers and Internet music soures but if you need to incorporate other equipment like turntables, 8-Track players, or Reel-to-Reel, then you will want to go with the first type of system.

In answer to your other questions:
A squeezebox system can display messages from a Home Automation system but it is not a Home Automation controller and is not the way to control other devices. Also this is not simple to implement because it is not directly supported by most Home Automation devices and requires you to work with the xAP protocol which might not be where you want to focus your efforts right now.

RCA cables used for connection between a music player and an amplifier are not speaker lines with RCA cables. They are shielded wires carrying line level audio. There are ways to extend them over distance but the best practice is to keep them short (keep the player close to the amp or powered speakers) and save the long runs for speaker wires.

The weather and stock display features are plugins for the Squeezecenter application that acts as the music server for Squeezebox players and are not dependent on any Home Automation application or hardware.
 
Just curious, but do the speakers loop anywhere locally before heading out to the central equipment room? Extra CAT5's, yeah the simplicity is appealing, but I've not had a chance to play around with baluns yet. Do they introduce any delay, degradation... or is that just more of my crazy talk?! ;)

Dunno exactly what you mean about the "speakers looping locally," but I believe we are talking about the line-level output of a source device (satellite box, game console, DVD player). It doesn't go anywhere but the central closet in my paradigm. THEN, it can amplified and go to the original room's speakers (or any room, or ALL the rooms, for that matter).

In my research, baluns do not degrade the signal significantly, or at all. And there will not be a delay since there is no processing going on. Everything is happening at 3 x 10^8 meters per second (roughly).
 
The first method is neater because it avoids a lot of clutter from equipment in each listening area and makes it simple to control the entire system from a central location. The disadvantages are that control is generally from a wall keypad rather than from the actual listening position. also Album/track type meta-data information is usually limited depending on what is supported by the proprietary keypad protocol but this is not usually an issue since it is generally not large enough to be readable from the listening area anyway. Some systems offer a larger LCD display to show pictures of album covers as a song plays. I can't speak to the value of that since I never used to stare at my album covers back when I was playing my music from LPs so I don't know why I would want to do that now. This method is best done in new contruction because it involves a lot of wiring that could be difficult after the walls are closed. It is usually easy to add whole house announcements tothese systems by utilizing special inputs at the central amplifier.

In intend to use this method, BUT:
1. control: with CQC, control can be from the Nuvo keypad, an UMPC in your hand, an IR remote in your hand, or any other device conceivable. So I certainly do not plan to be limited to control from the wall keypad (though the Nuvo GC keypads WILL be installed, and it appears the wife will be able to use them quite easily.) Also, the Nuvo keypads actually have an IR sensor on each keypad, so that obviously facilitates handheld remotes.

2. metadata: Nuvo can accept input from the serial port. So CQC can send whatever metadata you want to be displayed on the keypads. And your handheld / UMPC would presumably also be displaying this same metadata.
 
Has anybody tried NUVO's music port or their new 2-way remote yet? I'd like to know what the verdict is before i plunge in.

For now i think my system will consist of a Nuvo E6G, FM/XM tuner and Musicport (for streaming internet radio and iTunes).

Nuvo musicport docs say a dedicated PC is recommended, but I'm not planning to do that due to energy usage issues. I would run of the same PC that runs CQC, ELK RP and some other stuff.

Nobody actually answered one of the questions, can i get a NUVO E6G with the larger (2gang) Grand Concerto Keypads?? If I'm going to do Keypads i might as well get the nice ones.....

Also will the singe gang E6G keypads actually fit in a multigang box together with light switches etc? I know that is not the recommend height for keypads but still woudl like to know if they fit.

EDIT:
I am just realizing that on the E6G the speaker connections are on the 'Allport' whereas on the Concerto's they are on the unti itself. I guess this makes sense but one wonders about the wire gauge on the 'All port'. From what i understand on the Conerto's the allport os only for keypad interconnects.

I don't fully get the allport concept, if i mount it outside the rack to accept the field wiring of the keypad i have to run the wires from the head unit and Fm/XM tuners external to the rack as well....

For the Concerto the EZ-Port appears all RJ45/Cat5 based, but for the essentiatia (i assume due to the speaker wires) a bigger connection is used. Does anybody know the length of the cable supplied, if it detaching from the all port, if it is standard 'old school printer cable (which i doubt due to conductor size) and if you can get extenders.....

The Concerto appears to draw 25w under 'Power Consumption - No SIgnal' whereas the E6G takes 12w. The E6G also has a 'Standby' mode that takes only 0.8w. Does the Concerto not have such a standby mode?
 
Has anybody tried NUVO's music port or their new 2-way remote yet? I'd like to know what the verdict is before i plunge in.
I don't think the remote has shipped yet, so real world reviews would be rare.

Nobody actually answered one of the questions, can i get a NUVO E6G with the larger (2gang) Grand Concerto Keypads?? If I'm going to do Keypads i might as well get the nice ones.....
Nope, the small E6G cannot drive the big 2gang displays due to power limits. But the larger GC can drive the smaller 1gang displays.

The Concerto appears to draw 25w under 'Power Consumption - No SIgnal' whereas the E6G takes 12w. The E6G also has a 'Standby' mode that takes only 0.8w. Does the Concerto not have such a standby mode?
I haven't measured my GC Suite, but all the units appear to sleep when not in use for a period of time. When the GC was first introduced the Tuner and M3 servers did NOT shut down, they were on 24/7, but firmware upgrades now make them appear to sleep (the displays go dark and hard drive spins down). I don't know of any changes to the GC itself in this area. But when the GC is idle, is is still communicating with all the keypads, showing the clock and waiting to be woken up.
 
I know Squeezebox has come a long way recently it might be a great option.

But let me tell you about how much I love my Sonos system.

I have 8 zones in a very small house.
-Master Bedroom
-Master Bath
-Guest room
-guest Bath
-Living room
-Patio
-Office
-kitchen

The controllers work much like an iPod and can control any zone
For audio quality I have ripped all my CDs in apple lossless
I have two subscription music services:
-Rhapsody & Sirius
I also use the alarm clock function ever day.
There are also some free Internet radio stations that are very hight quality (about 190bkps)

Sirius - when you use sirius with the sonos it's via the internet, not satellite. That give you MUCH better sound quality, about 128 kbps.
Rhapsody - Has a search function and great quality with millions of songs to choose from.

There is also Pandora and Napster which I don't use.

I use the line-in on the two zones for TV audio, and Microphones in the back yard.
The mics in the back yard allow me to hear sounds of wind and leaves blowing and nature without having to open the windows and let cold air in.

The Sonos system works best if all of the zones are wired together via cat5, but wireless is an option. I have to Zone players in the entertainment center, and the others are in a room with long speaker wire runs.

The system is very easy to use. I have 3 controllers in my small 1400 sq ft house and that is more than enough. Any PC or MAC in the house can also be a controller for free.

The Sonos system is also not Dependant on a PC host, you use direct attached storage for your music, and it connects to the web for internet music.

The Sonos isn't cheap, but I think it's well worth the price when you consider the fact that amps are included.

One sign that people like their Sonos systems is the fact that used systems are few and far between on ebay.

~Jay
 
Sonos is a very good option if you are going with a modular system.

Some additional Pros include:

The interface is very intuitive (no learning curve)
There is a Homeseer plugin that will allow you to use one of the local player inputs to distribute HA announcements

Cons are:

No IR control so you can't use your favorite Learning remote to control it
The Controllers are 2-hand style devices (they really need to update these)
Does not have the messaging display features (weather, stocks, HA alerts) because there are no displays on the players

If you were going with Homeseer as your HA controller I would say this would be a very slick system. Besides the remotes you can also use touch screens as controllers which is nice. I'm not sure if Sonos is supported by CQC yet.
 
Has anybody seen the 2 gang and 1 gang OLED keypads in person? I saw them at a show recently but didnt get to play with them much.

I'm really on the fence now:
- Go with the E6G means:
- Better Energy efficiency
- Less power per zones (40w per zone, 20W per channel)
- Smaller keypads
- Go with the Grand Concerto means
- More power usage (possibly 25w when idle versus 1 watt).
- Bigger keypads
- More power per zones (40w per channel, 80w per zone).

I guess it comes down to price.

Is 20watt per channel sufficient for normal listining though? I would assume so since they would otherwise have dome for poor planning/engineering for a very expensive unit.
 
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