• You've been granted Beta access to this site, allowing you to explore some of the new features while they're still under construction. More information can be found in the Beta forum.

Upgrading from Moose Z1100 to Elk M1

DWH3

New Member
Hi all,
 
I recently purchased a new (to me) home that currently has a Moose Z1100 installed. The house was built in 1990. There are hardwired sensors on every door and window on the main level and I would prefer to reuse the hardwired sensors. Based on my research, it sounds like the Elk M1 would be a good system to upgrade to so that is what I've been researching.
 
I'm interested in replacing the 3 current motion detectors in the house with glass break sensors as well as adding a few additional glass break sensors. I also need to replace 3 smoke detectors and would like to add carbon monoxide detectors to the system.
 
Here is my current list of components to buy:
ELK-M1GKS - M1 Gold Control Kit with Keypad (No Enclosure)
ELK-SWB28 - 28" Structured Wiring Box
ELK-M1KPNAV - Navigator Touch Screen Keypad
ELK-M1BBK2 - Recess Back Box for M1KP2
ELK-M1KPAS - Arming Station
ELK-M1XIN - 16 Zone Hardwired Input Expander
ELK-M1XRFTW - Transceiver for ELK Two-Way Sensors
ELK-6010 - Keyfob
ELK-6040 - Glassbreak Sensor
ELK-6050 - Sound All Smoke Detector
ELK-M1XEP - Ethernet Interface
 
My main questions are:
1) I have never installed an alarm system before. Is this upgrade going to be over my head?
2) What glass break sensors do you recommend? (wired and wireless)
3) What smoke detectors do you recommend? (wired and possibly wireless)
4) What carbon monoxide detectors do you recommend? (probably wireless but could potentially run wiring)
5) Are there other components that I'm missing or should consider?
6) What are my best options for monitoring?
 
Thank you in advance for the help!
 

RAL

Senior Member
DWH3 said:
DWH3, on 15 Feb 2017 - 11:00, said:
Hi all,

I recently purchased a new (to me) home that currently has a Moose Z1100 installed. The house was built in 1990. There are hardwired sensors on every door and window on the main level and I would prefer to reuse the hardwired sensors. Based on my research, it sounds like the Elk M1 would be a good system to upgrade to so that is what I've been researching.

I'm interested in replacing the 3 current motion detectors in the house with glass break sensors as well as adding a few additional glass break sensors. I also need to replace 3 smoke detectors and would like to add carbon monoxide detectors to the system.

Here is my current list of components to buy:
ELK-M1GKS - M1 Gold Control Kit with Keypad (No Enclosure)
ELK-SWB28 - 28" Structured Wiring Box
ELK-M1KPNAV - Navigator Touch Screen Keypad
ELK-M1BBK2 - Recess Back Box for M1KP2
ELK-M1KPAS - Arming Station
ELK-M1XIN - 16 Zone Hardwired Input Expander
ELK-M1XRFTW - Transceiver for ELK Two-Way Sensors
ELK-6010 - Keyfob
ELK-6040 - Glassbreak Sensor
ELK-6050 - Sound All Smoke Detector
ELK-M1XEP - Ethernet Interface

My main questions are:
1) I have never installed an alarm system before. Is this upgrade going to be over my head?
2) What glass break sensors do you recommend? (wired and wireless)
3) What smoke detectors do you recommend? (wired and possibly wireless)
4) What carbon monoxide detectors do you recommend? (probably wireless but could potentially run wiring)
5) Are there other components that I'm missing or should consider?
6) What are my best options for monitoring?

Thank you in advance for the help!
The Elk is a good choice, especially if you want to expand into home automation. If your Moose system has EOL resistors on the wired contacts, it will be an easy upgrade since the Elk uses the same value resistors. Other alarm panels use different resistor values, making for more work to swap the panels. If there are no EOL resistors, then other alarm panels would also be an easy upgrade.

You say you'd like to replace motion detectors with glassbreak detectors. Note that the locations where you have motion detectors installed may not be good places to locate the glassbreaks. Glassbreak detectors want to be facing the glass they are protecting, while motion detectors are often pointed away from windows. Also, they don't quite provide the same type of protection. I view glassbreaks as a form of perimeter protection - they trigger when someone tries to force entry, much as a window contact would. A motion detector provides a second level of protection against someone who found another way in without triggering the perimeter sensors.

Some answers to your questions:

1. It depends on how comfortable you are with wiring and electronics and also the configuration and programming. The instruction manuals assume you know quite a bit about alarm systems and the manuals are not oriented towards beginners. Programming them correctly can be quite a task. Fortunately, there some good tutorial materials on Youtube. It's well worth your time to spend some hours viewing them and learning how things work. Start with the Basic Training video. If you are willing to spend the time reading and watching videos, you can probably handle it. Also, there are many folks here who are happy to answer questions. Almost everyone gets stuck at some point and needs some advice.

2. I used Visonic Glasstech glassbreaks. Some of the pros who hang out here recommended them over other brands, like the GE Sentrol. The Elk 6050 uses a Sentrol detector.

3. System Sensor i3 or i4 series. If your wiring is for 2-wire smokes and you connect them directly to the panel, you must use a model that is compatible with the alarm panel you go with. Choosing 2-wire or 4-wire smokes and wiring them properly is something you should study up on before you buy anything. It's probably one of the most complex parts of an alarm system. There are many threads on Cocoontech which discuss the issues.

4. System Sensor offers wired combo smoke/CO detectors. There are also wired CO detectors from Edwards Signalling and Interlogix. Honeywell makes a wireless CO detector that is compatible with the Honeywell receiver that is available for the Elk.

5. Depending on how your keypads are wired on the Moose, you will need an Elk M1DBHR if you want to reuse the wiring, assuming it is wired with 4-wire home runs.

It looks like you are leaning towards the Elk two-way wireless, but note that there are similar sensors (and a greater variety) for the Elk's Honeywell and GE receivers.

You probably want to add some kind of interior speaker(s) to your system, like the Elk SP12F or Elk73. Otherwise you won't hear any voice/sound output other than keypad beeps. You may also want an exterior speaker or siren. The exterior speaker will produce siren sounds that will be in sync with the interior siren sounds from the interior speakers and is usually a better choice than a siren.

6. Many folks here go with AlarmRelay or NextAlarm.
 
3. Z1100's used a 4 wire fire loop, but if you have wiring issues, it's best to assume replacing with a 2 wire loop. Simpler wiring and connections. I4 detectors and module would solve a lot of your issues and not require any new cabling in the field.
 
4.Wireless is going to limit your choices, really to Honeywell branded RF. Not a huge issue, but something to consider.
 
5.Pads are most likely multiple 4 conductor drops, so you should buy the DBHR unless you only have 2 keypads.
 
I really wouldn't recommend Elk's wireless. Too few devices and known battery QC issues out of the box. Not a fan of what it offers compared to going to a 3rd party compatible RF device.
 
You need to inventory whether or not you have a siren or speaker on the 1100. It'd be connected to the J header and through the relay onboard or you'd have a separate driver. Speakers with the M1 are suggested.
 

DWH3

New Member
RAL said:
The Elk is a good choice, especially if you want to expand into home automation. If your Moose system has EOL resistors on the wired contacts, it will be an easy upgrade since the Elk uses the same value resistors. Other alarm panels use different resistor values, making for more work to swap the panels. If there are no EOL resistors, then other alarm panels would also be an easy upgrade.

You say you'd like to replace motion detectors with glassbreak detectors. Note that the locations where you have motion detectors installed may not be good places to locate the glassbreaks. Glassbreak detectors want to be facing the glass they are protecting, while motion detectors are often pointed away from windows. Also, they don't quite provide the same type of protection. I view glassbreaks as a form of perimeter protection - they trigger when someone tries to force entry, much as a window contact would. A motion detector provides a second level of protection against someone who found another way in without triggering the perimeter sensors.

Some answers to your questions:

1. It depends on how comfortable you are with wiring and electronics and also the configuration and programming. The instruction manuals assume you know quite a bit about alarm systems and the manuals are not oriented towards beginners. Programming them correctly can be quite a task. Fortunately, there some good tutorial materials on Youtube. It's well worth your time to spend some hours viewing them and learning how things work. Start with the Basic Training video. If you are willing to spend the time reading and watching videos, you can probably handle it. Also, there are many folks here who are happy to answer questions. Almost everyone gets stuck at some point and needs some advice.

2. I used Visonic Glasstech glassbreaks. Some of the pros who hang out here recommended them over other brands, like the GE Sentrol. The Elk 6050 uses a Sentrol detector.

3. System Sensor i3 or i4 series. If your wiring is for 2-wire smokes and you connect them directly to the panel, you must use a model that is compatible with the alarm panel you go with. Choosing 2-wire or 4-wire smokes and wiring them properly is something you should study up on before you buy anything. It's probably one of the most complex parts of an alarm system. There are many threads on Cocoontech which discuss the issues.

4. System Sensor offers wired combo smoke/CO detectors. There are also wired CO detectors from Edwards Signalling and Interlogix. Honeywell makes a wireless CO detector that is compatible with the Honeywell receiver that is available for the Elk.

5. Depending on how your keypads are wired on the Moose, you will need an Elk M1DBHR if you want to reuse the wiring, assuming it is wired with 4-wire home runs.

It looks like you are leaning towards the Elk two-way wireless, but note that there are similar sensors (and a greater variety) for the Elk's Honeywell and GE receivers.

You probably want to add some kind of interior speaker(s) to your system, like the Elk SP12F or Elk73. Otherwise you won't hear any voice/sound output other than keypad beeps. You may also want an exterior speaker or siren. The exterior speaker will produce siren sounds that will be in sync with the interior siren sounds from the interior speakers and is usually a better choice than a siren.

6. Many folks here go with AlarmRelay or NextAlarm.
 
Thanks for pointing that out about the glassbreak mounting locations. The motion detector locations are close to where the glassbreaks would need to be so I'm hoping to just relocate the existing wiring. My dog has free run of the house during the day which is why I'm trying to get away from the motion detectors. Is there a better alternative you would suggest?
 
1. I'm very comfortable with the wiring aspect but the configuration and programming is what concerns me. It sounds like as long as I'm willing to spend some time watching tutorials I should be able to figure it out.
 
2. I will definitely look into those.
 
3. I believe the current smoke detectors are 4-wire but will double check tonight.
 
4. Thanks for these suggestions! I'll do some research on those.
 
5. I haven't looked at the keypad wiring yet but will add that to my list of things to check on. I was looking at the Elk wireless because I assumed that would be the easiest but it sounds like I should do some more research. There is an interior speaker/siren for the existing system but I haven't removed it yet to see exactly what kind.
 
6. Thanks for these suggestions as well!
 
Thank you for all your advice and suggestions!
 
DELInstallations said:
3. Z1100's used a 4 wire fire loop, but if you have wiring issues, it's best to assume replacing with a 2 wire loop. Simpler wiring and connections. I4 detectors and module would solve a lot of your issues and not require any new cabling in the field.
 
4.Wireless is going to limit your choices, really to Honeywell branded RF. Not a huge issue, but something to consider.
 
5.Pads are most likely multiple 4 conductor drops, so you should buy the DBHR unless you only have 2 keypads.
 
I really wouldn't recommend Elk's wireless. Too few devices and known battery QC issues out of the box. Not a fan of what it offers compared to going to a 3rd party compatible RF device.
 
You need to inventory whether or not you have a siren or speaker on the 1100. It'd be connected to the J header and through the relay onboard or you'd have a separate driver. Speakers with the M1 are suggested.
 
3. I don't have any wiring issues that I know of (knock on wood) but I haven't tested everything yet either. I'll take a look at the i4 detectors.
 
4. I tend to prefer wired sensors but I also know that running the necessary wiring may be more effort than it is worth.
 
5. The current system only has 2 keypads but I want to add the M1KPAS Arming Station. Would that require the DBHR?
 
As I mentioned above, I assumed that using Elk's wireless would be the easiest option but it sounds like I should do some more research on other options.
 
There is an interior speaker/siren for the existing system that's flush mounted but I haven't removed it yet to see exactly what kind.
 
Thank you for all your advice and suggestions!
 

RAL

Senior Member
DWH3 said:
Thanks for pointing that out about the glassbreak mounting locations. The motion detector locations are close to where the glassbreaks would need to be so I'm hoping to just relocate the existing wiring. My dog has free run of the house during the day which is why I'm trying to get away from the motion detectors. Is there a better alternative you would suggest?
 
1. I'm very comfortable with the wiring aspect but the configuration and programming is what concerns me. It sounds like as long as I'm willing to spend some time watching tutorials I should be able to figure it out.
 
2. I will definitely look into those.
 
3. I believe the current smoke detectors are 4-wire but will double check tonight.
 
4. Thanks for these suggestions! I'll do some research on those.
 
5. I haven't looked at the keypad wiring yet but will add that to my list of things to check on. I was looking at the Elk wireless because I assumed that would be the easiest but it sounds like I should do some more research. There is an interior speaker/siren for the existing system but I haven't removed it yet to see exactly what kind.
 
6. Thanks for these suggestions as well!
 
Thank you for all your advice and suggestions!
 
 
3. I don't have any wiring issues that I know of (knock on wood) but I haven't tested everything yet either. I'll take a look at the i4 detectors.
 
4. I tend to prefer wired sensors but I also know that running the necessary wiring may be more effort than it is worth.
 
5. The current system only has 2 keypads but I want to add the M1KPAS Arming Station. Would that require the DBHR?
 
As I mentioned above, I assumed that using Elk's wireless would be the easiest option but it sounds like I should do some more research on other options.
 
There is an interior speaker/siren for the existing system that's flush mounted but I haven't removed it yet to see exactly what kind.
 
Thank you for all your advice and suggestions!
 
Depending on the size of your dog, you may find that a dual tech motion detector that uses both PIR and microwaves to sense motion may work for you.  They are less prone to false alarms than plain PIR detectors.
 
Take a look at the Bosch ISC-BDL2-WP12G.
 
The Elk keypads and the zone expanders (M1XIN and M1XRFxx) all connect to the M1's data bus.  The bus can have at most two branches, but all the devices on each branch must be wired in a daisy chain, with the first device connecting to the second device, and then to the third device, and so on.  You can create a daisy chain with home run cables if you have at least 6 conductors per cable (e.g. use CATx cable which has 8 conductors).
 
In your case, you may be able to still do it with the 4-wire cable to the existing keypads as long as you wire them to be the last devices in each branch.  Then you wouldn't need a M1DBHR.
 
If your existing interior speaker is indeed a speaker and not a siren, that should work with the Elk.  Though you might want to add additional speakers near the other keypad locations or other places where you want to be able to hear things.
 
RE: PI motions.....generally can't be installed in the "traditional" areas where PIR's were installed to be "traps" like foyers and really anywhere the animal would or could climb up.
 
I put out the facts on the Z1100.....
 
4 wire smoke detectors. Change your loop to the I4 and the module and you won't have more wiring to run for CO/Fire.
 
If you trace out the wire for the speaker/siren to the panel and don't see a daughter board installed on the 1100 or a board stuck inside the can, its a siren. Plan on adding an aux power supply or consider replacing a siren for a speaker.
 
As far as a DBHR, you wouldn't necessarily need it, but might be advisable in your case, especially as a novice.
 
I've installed and worked on literally every manufacturer and panel out there at some point in my years.
 
Top