I was going to say we need to follow the money to see how this might work. And if we follow the money in the two articles just mentioned...there is Google. So I was thinking a company needs to find a way to make money off of it and Google seems to be the one. Not quite sure where Google plans to monetize it but they definitely have the opportunity to be an IoT big gorilla and I really don't see any other big gorillas joining them so they may have the space to themselves for a while.
What is wrong with CQC?
- Thread starter Dean Roddey
- Start date
fcwilt
Active Member
jkmonroe said:
I've tried on a couple of occasions to setup some Z-wave devices but it never seemed easy - at least compared to UPB.
If I understand it correctly Z-wave has Groups, Scenes and Associations to achieve what UPB manages to do with just Links.
I never got the point where I really had a handle on Z-wave - just stuck with UPB.
Deane Johnson
Active Member
Interesting links. It's good to see this Thread group making some noise.
For a starting point in home automation, we need to see some basics available. Is anyone making any Zigbee light dimmers, switches and wall modules? Just that group of items alone would be a start.
I would think that as soon as something showed promise of reliable uniformity, there would be a lot of momentum generated rather quickly if it became clear the new direction was a serious effort. We thought Z-Wave was a serious effort but the Consortium approached it as a typical committee would and almost destroyed it right out of the chute.
Can CQC talk to Zigbee?
For a starting point in home automation, we need to see some basics available. Is anyone making any Zigbee light dimmers, switches and wall modules? Just that group of items alone would be a start.
I would think that as soon as something showed promise of reliable uniformity, there would be a lot of momentum generated rather quickly if it became clear the new direction was a serious effort. We thought Z-Wave was a serious effort but the Consortium approached it as a typical committee would and almost destroyed it right out of the chute.
Can CQC talk to Zigbee?
I like the devices from Smartenit. http://smartenit.com/shop/zigbee/zigbee-home-automation/ Wall switches are still pretty rare at this point, but most else exists. Leviton makes some VERY expensive stuff with ridiculous prices. Most of these devices measure power as well.Deane Johnson said:
At this stage, Zigbee isn't really supported by many controllers. It IS supported by many of these cell phone/Wi-Fi Gateway devices. These people tend not to wire in switches. They are more the plug-in module type.
Dean Roddey
Senior Member
The little Xbee boards are basically the 'Z-Wave USB Stick' of the Zigbee world, allowing devices to become Zigbee nodes. Like the Z-Wave USB stick thing, it does probably mean you have to deal with the complexities of Zigbee but you probably gets lots of control as well. We've done one driver using it, for a Zigbee enabled RCS thermo. But it appeared to have a proprietary stack just for that thermo, or maybe it was just some very low level, basic stack that didn't implement any particular profiles or something.
But, if you got the HA profile installed on the XBee card, and put it in an little enclosure with power and a connector, then it would pretty much be the same sort of thing as the USB stick in Z-Wave and allow products like CQC to interact with Zigbee HA devices. Though we would have to get the information required (and spin up on all of that information.) Hopefully it's not as bad as Z-Wave.
But, if you got the HA profile installed on the XBee card, and put it in an little enclosure with power and a connector, then it would pretty much be the same sort of thing as the USB stick in Z-Wave and allow products like CQC to interact with Zigbee HA devices. Though we would have to get the information required (and spin up on all of that information.) Hopefully it's not as bad as Z-Wave.
pete_c
Guru
Here have 3-4 wireless / 2 lamp/appliance Zigbee modules. The lamp/appliance modules are smaller than the Z-Wave modules and have a Euro look to them. The Wireless modules utilize 12VDC batteries.
I have not had any issues relating to pairing / reach with them.
Here is a web site showing what the Securifi Almond + works with.
That said relating to Z-Wave only played with appliance / lamp / outdoor modules. (~ 40-50 of them today - for play) One of my first Z-Wave lamp modules did do a crash and burn behind a couch. It was so bright that I saw the flash on the periferals of the couch. I took the appliance module apart. It was pretty scorched up. These was a few years back now. Never had another one do that. I have used Intermatic stuff for many years (commercially); never did have an issue with their stuff.
I have not had any issues relating to pairing / reach with them.
Here is a web site showing what the Securifi Almond + works with.
That said relating to Z-Wave only played with appliance / lamp / outdoor modules. (~ 40-50 of them today - for play) One of my first Z-Wave lamp modules did do a crash and burn behind a couch. It was so bright that I saw the flash on the periferals of the couch. I took the appliance module apart. It was pretty scorched up. These was a few years back now. Never had another one do that. I have used Intermatic stuff for many years (commercially); never did have an issue with their stuff.
Dean Roddey
Senior Member
Part of the problem with Z-Wave is that it was not created for real automation system integration. Both on the very basic front of not providing an official means for external systems to integrate to Z-Wave, and in the sense that it was really just a simple system controlled by simple remote controls. Two way control was not a consideration, other than the fact that you could generally read the state of the modules. But reading the state of the modules isn't useful in a modern automation system, at least with a network of any size, because of the slowness of the Z-Wave network. So that lead to adding associations, which do help considerably but there's LOTS of stuff out there (those Intermatics probably among them) that don't support associations.
So, in some ways they gain the edge by breaking off from the Zigbee alliance and going out first, since they got their name out there and got manufacturers on board. But of course they suffer from having jumped out there early before it was all really thought out. And by not really taking third party integration seriously (they still don't presumably given that there's no official means to integrate, only things provided by third parties.)
So, in some ways they gain the edge by breaking off from the Zigbee alliance and going out first, since they got their name out there and got manufacturers on board. But of course they suffer from having jumped out there early before it was all really thought out. And by not really taking third party integration seriously (they still don't presumably given that there's no official means to integrate, only things provided by third parties.)
Centralite makes Zigbee devices, and GE has a Zigbee switch now, too.
http://www.centralite.com/index.php/products
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?st=GE+Zigbee&_dyncharset=UTF-8&id=pcat17071&type=page&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960&keys=keys
if the Best Buy link doesn't work, just goto their site and search for GE Zigbee.
That stuff from Smartinit just goes to show you the inflated price of things, although I really dig that 3 button keypad.
http://www.centralite.com/index.php/products
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?st=GE+Zigbee&_dyncharset=UTF-8&id=pcat17071&type=page&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960&keys=keys
if the Best Buy link doesn't work, just goto their site and search for GE Zigbee.
That stuff from Smartinit just goes to show you the inflated price of things, although I really dig that 3 button keypad.
I don't think the Smartenit prices are bad. Maybe slightly higher than Best Buy. I've seen worse:
http://www.securitystoreusa.com/HAI-89A00-1ZB-p/89a00-1zb.htm
Prices will drop once sales volumes increase. There is a fair bit more electronics in Zigbee and Z-Wave. Zigbee has a MUCH larger stack size, and it's firmware can be updated OVER-THE-AIR. I don't believe Z-Wave firmware on devices can be upgraded a all. Still Zigbee chips are under $2 each, so there is a bunch of markup occuring.
http://www.securitystoreusa.com/HAI-89A00-1ZB-p/89a00-1zb.htm
Prices will drop once sales volumes increase. There is a fair bit more electronics in Zigbee and Z-Wave. Zigbee has a MUCH larger stack size, and it's firmware can be updated OVER-THE-AIR. I don't believe Z-Wave firmware on devices can be upgraded a all. Still Zigbee chips are under $2 each, so there is a bunch of markup occuring.
Zigbee is a communication protocol, what uses it is application dependant. Having a zigbee chip does not offer any interoperability by itself, and most zigbee devices on the market today implement proprietary application layers, even those that claim to run a HA stack. It would be great to have more devices compatible with HA 2.0 and even greater, controllers that can talk to them. So far most of this seems to be happening in the fragmented land of cloud based HA services.
Can we stop talking about Zigbee and Zwave please and get back to roasting Dean? 
I know I'm one of the ones that complained about not enough training material or too hard but I just want to reiterrate how much I respect how hard Dean works to make CQC better. CQC may not be perfect, nothing is, but the pride and hard work that Dean puts in and the info he shares about what he is working on is refreshing. Thanks for your efforts Dean! I'm looking forward to learning about the skunkworks.
I know I'm one of the ones that complained about not enough training material or too hard but I just want to reiterrate how much I respect how hard Dean works to make CQC better. CQC may not be perfect, nothing is, but the pride and hard work that Dean puts in and the info he shares about what he is working on is refreshing. Thanks for your efforts Dean! I'm looking forward to learning about the skunkworks.
I reread this whole thread one last time...I think CQC has some areas for program improvement such as UI, learning curve etc...but I do no think any of them are substantially hindering CQC growth.
The more I read, the more I think as CQC developed so its business did, a hand in hand approach. That period is past, and for more substantial growth and market share (whichever market it is) the Business needs at least as much attention now as the software has had.
i.e. CQC needs a level of knowledge and effort for Marketing/Sales/Business like Dean Roddey is for the programming and support.
That process will guide your future software paths.
The more I read, the more I think as CQC developed so its business did, a hand in hand approach. That period is past, and for more substantial growth and market share (whichever market it is) the Business needs at least as much attention now as the software has had.
i.e. CQC needs a level of knowledge and effort for Marketing/Sales/Business like Dean Roddey is for the programming and support.
That process will guide your future software paths.
pete_c
Guru
Yes; a business manager would work and yeah a Zigbee interface to CQC would be nice.
Just today wrote to a person (well he wrote to me) like that that has served as an IT business manager for an IT company for some 2 years now.
It almost became a 24/7 job from what I could tell and he ended up getting involved in some technical details learning on the go but I could see it was not an appealing piece or part of his job. Geez a rush hour in the car international Skype call can be not a pleasing endeavor depending on the local.
Just today wrote to a person (well he wrote to me) like that that has served as an IT business manager for an IT company for some 2 years now.
It almost became a 24/7 job from what I could tell and he ended up getting involved in some technical details learning on the go but I could see it was not an appealing piece or part of his job. Geez a rush hour in the car international Skype call can be not a pleasing endeavor depending on the local.
My advice for Dean, and really any company making a product for some time, is to maybe stand back and reevaluate the direction that you are heading. CQC has been around a long time, and there is no question the world, and home automation have changed a fair bit during that time. Many times a product will start from a vision, and years and years go by while this vision is realized, but also during that time the market, technology, and everything changes. Maybe now is a great time to stop, sit down, do some research, look at the world, and decide if the direction CQC is headed is still the direction that it should be headed.
I stated that I used CQC for many years, and while not ideal in some ways, it still was better than anything out there. But then, over time, Dean's vision went off in one direction, while I was going in another. Dean worked on elaborate displays for PC and RIVA clients while I was more interested in reliable real-time control, and remote web-based access. Some very important points for me, like supporting all of Leviton/Omni features and getting UPB rock solid, and maybe exploring new connection technologies like Zigbee were never addressed. I never used PC clients or RIVA so those things weren't important to me. I was using text-to-speech and other means to communicate with the system.
I was in Home Depot a few days ago, and I have been watching their "Home Automation" section. It started in the front of the store, and now its in the back on clearance. So I bought a Link Hub and two Zigbee lightbulbs for under $20. I didn't plan to use the hub, and I was going to see if the Zigbee light bulbs would work with the rest of my system. They did. Anyway, I starting reading about it and this hub has Zigbee, Z-wave, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi and actually a few more wireless technologies. A free app on the phone controls it all without any monthly fees, and I see it even has IFTTT support. So wait, so like for $10 i have a full home automation system, with a phone app. that can do a whole bunch and be up and running in about 10 minutes. I'm NOT saying this is the future, or that it is for me, but it IS a radial change, my point being, the world of Home Automation HAS CHANGED radically in the last 10 years. I no longer need a PC to do a whole lot of stuff cheaply.
So again, maybe now is time to look how the world of home automation has changed, and maybe more important, take some guesses where it will be in 10 years, and from there, craft how CQC might need to change so that it is still relevant. Yes, change is always scary, but also very important to embrace. You can certainly choose to ignore change, but do so at your own risk.
I stated that I used CQC for many years, and while not ideal in some ways, it still was better than anything out there. But then, over time, Dean's vision went off in one direction, while I was going in another. Dean worked on elaborate displays for PC and RIVA clients while I was more interested in reliable real-time control, and remote web-based access. Some very important points for me, like supporting all of Leviton/Omni features and getting UPB rock solid, and maybe exploring new connection technologies like Zigbee were never addressed. I never used PC clients or RIVA so those things weren't important to me. I was using text-to-speech and other means to communicate with the system.
I was in Home Depot a few days ago, and I have been watching their "Home Automation" section. It started in the front of the store, and now its in the back on clearance. So I bought a Link Hub and two Zigbee lightbulbs for under $20. I didn't plan to use the hub, and I was going to see if the Zigbee light bulbs would work with the rest of my system. They did. Anyway, I starting reading about it and this hub has Zigbee, Z-wave, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi and actually a few more wireless technologies. A free app on the phone controls it all without any monthly fees, and I see it even has IFTTT support. So wait, so like for $10 i have a full home automation system, with a phone app. that can do a whole bunch and be up and running in about 10 minutes. I'm NOT saying this is the future, or that it is for me, but it IS a radial change, my point being, the world of Home Automation HAS CHANGED radically in the last 10 years. I no longer need a PC to do a whole lot of stuff cheaply.
So again, maybe now is time to look how the world of home automation has changed, and maybe more important, take some guesses where it will be in 10 years, and from there, craft how CQC might need to change so that it is still relevant. Yes, change is always scary, but also very important to embrace. You can certainly choose to ignore change, but do so at your own risk.
