Which is the best?

[fitzpatri8]

So what does this all boil into?? Which is a good technology for development ?? INSTEON?? z-wave ?? UPB ?? Can there be a distinct way out?? Or is the world still confused on what tech to standardize on?

The short answer is 'Yes', confusion abounds.

As I've said elsewhere, "This is a great time to be involved in the evolution of Home Automation, but this is a terrible time to automate." Which is to say, if you want to influence the way HA will work in your children's and grandchildren's day, you should be involved now in moving technology the right direction.

Today, easy-retrofit HA technologies are, by and large, where MS was with Windows v.3.1. We're past the DOS stage, where lots of companies built 'PC Compatibles' that booted with a different 'version' of DOS that didn't necessarily all run the same stuff that worked on your IBM brand PC; but we're still a ways off from the Windows 95-XP 'Plug and Play' stage where things pretty much plug in and work. HA standards are underdeveloped, ill-defined or open-ended, offering a list of features a manufacturer can choose to support or ignore. The good news is, the variety of companies involved in the field grows by the day, and the competition is driving investment, innovation, cost-reduction, and mass-market thinking and attention.

More refined options already exist in hardwired automation, wherein separate low-voltage wiring signals adjust line-level controls. However, retrofitting the control wires is messy and expensive, there's less competition, and there's less pressure to innovate or reduce costs. Integrators are accustomed to lower numbers of jobs with higher per-job margins, and so are more willing to include custom programming and integration of disparate high-end technologies into their solutions.

Tom

 

[KenM]

@KenM

I didnt get you exactly. Are you saying that the RF mode in INSTEON is not being used as of now?? Is it that INSTEON is working on power line only?

The currently shipping switches use only powerline command protocol.

I think what SmartLabsMike was saying is that the 'network' is dual-mesh. Any device in the network does not necessarily need to transmit both RF & Powerline to be part of a INSTEON network.

The literature is a little confusing in that respect, at least it was for me at first read.

Ken

 

[SmartLabsMike]

As long as you include weasel words like "theoretically" or "ability" or "in the future", you are correct. Please list the shipping products (any brand is fine) that use option #2 or #3.

WayneW - no need for name calling - I am just helping out.

for shipping products:
#3 SignaLinc RFs

 

[midhun]

It depends on the software obviously. You need to choose carefully a product that supports all of the available technology you wish to use.

I have heard of a lot of softwares for home automation and also read about them in the thread "The Ultimate Home Automation Software List". Will any one of those help out in integrating and running a home automation system which uses different technologies?


If no *standard* standard exists, what technology are the Celestron guys using? Its it their own proprietary?? I would not be surprised - as the company itself looks really huge (it has a good global presence) and does a lot of automation stuff. Does developing a new technology for one self make sense here??

Midhun

 

[DavidL]

midhun, all of the software based automation software do integration across different technologies. My point was that NONE of the software products will control "ALL" of the technology choices. So, limit your hardware choices (many) that are already supported by your software choice.

So, as example for MainLobby, don't choose Z-Wave today because it's not supported (today, but not too far off).

CQC, don't choose Vantage Infusion product (one probably bad example)

Homeseer will have their list of unsupported, but they do support Z-Wave,

HAL will have theirs.

And, of course there are more than one unsupported technology that each doesn't cover.

do your research on hardware, do a first, second choice, do same for the software, compare the hardware list to the software, and determine which is more important for you and decide.

 

[IVB]

Of course, nothing is static. When you're researching software, make sure to check the CQC Drivers in Progress thread. You may find something that you want doesn't have a released driver, but someone may be working on it if you're willing to be a beta tester. There's 130ish drivers in the base CQC product, but another 43 that are in progress. That list changes pretty frequently as one driver or another is finished almost weekly and others are begun, so check back often.

BTW, CQC does support the Vantage Q-series Master controller, no idea what that means vis-a-vis infusion.

 

[WayneW]

WayneW - no need for name calling - I am just helping out.

I didn't call you any names, but you did use marketing words. As one who has used Insteon and continues to be on the bleeding edge, I am trying to reduce confusion about Insteon for others. Since SmartHome can now only talk about shipping products, it is only fair that we evaluate the technology using shipping products. If SmartHome wants us to believe this is dual mesh technology, then they need to demonstrate that. Rumors are already flying that the future rumored RF stuff will not be 100% compatible with the existing SignaLincs.

 

[George West]

Hey,

Thx for the reply. I am looking at implementing integrated home automation solutions for already built homes. So I would definitely want to tinker with the technology...

But as said above, if INSTEON is not professional, can we at least expect it to become one? Or is z-wave the best?? Intel is part of the z-wave alliance. And Microsoft has tied up with Leviton to develop the required software. Also z-wave membership is very expensive too. Seeing this, is z-wave a better option to implement home automation in a large numbers??

... I have ruled out UPB as it is only PLC and is expensive too.

I'm still a little confused about your use of the term module. It sounds like a module would be one of (lighting, HVAC Control, Security, AV distribution). If that is the case, I expect that you will absolutely need to use multiple protocols in your jobs. Or am I missing something and what you want to do is also manufacture controllers of different types?

If you plan on going the integrator route I will echo Steve's comments above - choose an integration platform (ELK, HAI, etc) and get those companies advice regarding what works best with their products. (ie where they have the fewest support calls) Also choose a software platform and use those two components as the center of your offering.

If you also want to build controllers, I suggest that your first call be to your local VC or the F$F crowd.

Is INSTEON professional?

It is pretty easy to find INSTEON installs of greater than 100 devices either in DIY situations or professional installs. An early call to make is to SmartHome Pro and ask about certification training. The trainer for SH Pro is/was a C10 and union electrician and came out of the pro installer world as well as being on staff with one of the movie studios. Before joining SH he did a number of >100 node professional intalls using INSTEON and he also has some pretty funny stories about the experience.

Intel, Microsoft and Z-Wave.

Intel has their fingers in a lot of pots. They have also been very unsucessful in the comm chips world. What Microsoft is doing with Leviton/Z-Wave matches exactly with use cases for Bluetooth devices that are being promoted by Nokia, CSR and the Bluetooth SIG. Place your bets as you will.

UPB

Don't ignore UPB as an option. There is an open standard with very reasonable licensing terms for UPB. UPB itself is PLC only but there are a number of offerings that get UPB signals in and out of the IR (and RF I think) world so I don't consider that a real issue. I think you will find that for the market you wish to enter, the costs of the switches is not a significant differentiator. Also, for pro-line devices UPB is price competitive or superior with Z-Wave products.

Good Luck.

George West
www.wtrs.net

 

[fitzpatri8]

If SmartHome wants us to believe this is dual mesh technology, then they need to demonstrate that.

Wayne, they have. Are your SignaLinc RFs broken? Mine work, and I know because I've tested them. I can completely isolate devices from powerline signals using signal filters, then plug another SignaLinc RF into the pass-through of the isolated device and voilla! It works.

It's either that Insteon wireless mesh technology works, or I've got leprechauns. Did you do something to make your leprechauns mad?

Tom

(Just to add to what George said, there's no monopoly on good protocol ideas. I don't know whether to be happy or sad about MS sticking its feet in the water with ZWave, however. Embedded home control computers are in our future, and MS is the dominant OS and the straightest line toward consumer awareness of what HA offers. I just hope that any version 1.0 integration is of better quality than any of its other version 1 products, lest first consumer experiences set home automation adoption back by years. "Sorry, your automation server crashed. Would you like to reboot and reprogram everything before you turn on that light?")

 

[WayneW]

Wayne, they have. Are your SignaLinc RFs broken? Mine work, and I know because I've tested them.

Not to be a jerk, but that doesn't prove anything. The SignaLinks could be communicating via invisible smoke signals for all we know and your tests would still pass. Until there are shipping RF devices that directly interact with the user, the method used by SignaLincs is irrelevant. And if the rumored hard wired phase coupler ever ships, that would further make the SignaLincs irrelevant for some people. And if the rumors are true about the limitations of the RF Remote and/or the need for new "Access Points", it will further make people unhappy.

http://www.techmall.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID...Terms=signalinc

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showto...l=access+points

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showto...9&hl=SignaLincs
jump to the Jan 18th posts

No offense to Mike who is trying to do a good job for a company in a tough situation, but SmartHome hasn't squashed these rumors in their own forum!

 

[fitzpatri8]

Not to be a jerk, but that doesn't prove anything. The SignaLinks could be communicating via invisible smoke signals for all we know and your tests would still pass. Until there are shipping RF devices that directly interact with the user, the method used by SignaLincs is irrelevant.

That's complete and utter nonsense. When SignaLinc RFs are in place, signals can travel between devices separated by filters that stop powerline signals--you can confirm this using a oscilloscope. Further, if you separate the two SignaLincs with a faraday cage, you can successfully block signals yet again.

Clearly the SignaLincs are communicating signals via radio waves. Radio Frequency + Powerline Carrier=Dual Band. To insist otherwise is to argue that, since you cannot see it, air doesn't exist.

A lie repeated often enough is still... a lie.

 

[KenM]

fitzpatri8,

Who is Faraday? Why did he make a cage? JOKING

I do understand Wayne's point though. Without 'actual' RF remote devices, the fact that SignaLincs work is kind irrelevant. Other than that they fulfill the dual-mesh prophecy. I read the public INSTEON documents before I bought my first device in NOV 05. My impression was that ALL devices worked with both RF and power line. I bought into it and that was only one of a series of disappointments related to the marketing of these devices.

And just FYI the "A lie repeated often enough is still... a lie." response that you gave to Wayne, is basically what soured me on INSTEON. Without making this long and boring, I can still blow up any ApplianceLinc with a ballasted 30Watt fluorescent light fixture, and SL still claims that doesn't happen. I sometimes misspell words but aint that stupid.

Sorry, I still have some repressed anger regarding the above.




Ken

 

[DavidL]

IVB, Q Series is Vantage's old series. What they are selling now is the Infusion line. Cinemar supports both generations.
BTW, the testing on Infusion has been extremely positive. Very fast response and very linear. Very powerful controller. Near seamless control from touchscreen to actual lighting load. Definately Pro series product.

 

[rocco]

There are a few "zigbee" compliant system out (control4 comes to mind) and they are NOT interchangable.

Just to set the record straight: There are NO Zigbee compliant devices yet, except in the industrial sensor market. A few Zigbee compliant platforms exist, but no home automation devices.

Although people talk of Control4 devices as being Zigbee, they are not. They have not qualified for Zigbee, although they probably will eventually. This is not the fault of Control4, they are doing their best with an unfinished specification. You might also notice that they never claim Zigbee-compliance.

When there are finally Zigbee-compliant devices, I am sure that they WILL interoperate. Interoperability is a requirement for Zigbee certification. Just make sure you look for the Zigbee logo.

 

[fitzpatri8]

I do understand Wayne's point though. Without 'actual' RF remote devices, the fact that SignaLincs work is kind irrelevant. Other than that they fulfill the dual-mesh prophecy.

Ken, know that I appreciate your contributions to HA and this forum. This, however, is one time we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Electricity existed before light bulbs. Water existed before boats. SL designed the technology and built the SignaLinc RF devices, and they are at this very minute successfully moving bits through the air that allow powerline devices to turn on and off. As we speak, my PowerLinc is relying on two SignaLinc RFs to communicate with the rest of my house, with PLC signals completely blocked by an effective powerline signal filter.

Clearly dual mesh isn't just a pie-in-the-sky idea.

If you told me that a battery operated, Insteon-enabled smoke detector wasn't available for sale right now, I'd agree. Dimmers and relays available today rely upon the SignaLincs to move PLC signals to RF and back. That product design decision makes Insteons easier to install in tight boxes and less expensive to build and sell. When battery-operated remotes are released, they won't plug into the powerline either, but that doesn't mean they aren't relying on a dual mesh protocol to get their messages across.

Just because you don't have a boat or a light bulb handy, please don't try to convince me that water and electricity don't exist.

Tom