Wired and Wireless Home Automation / Security?

[jokah]

We have some wiring in our house, and had talked to the original installer about how they would complete the system. Of course, they are ultimately salespeople (Hai), so I wanted to chat with some helpful folks on the net to ensure I am not overlooking anything.


What we have existing:

Wired doormagnets (in doorframes but not on doors - strange)
Wired motion detectors
Wiring for garage sensors (not connected)
Wiring for keypads in master/Entry
Wiring for thermostats
and other common things (fire alarms, siren/speakers, etc).

We also have a current CCTV system (analog)


Ultimate goal (basic)
Security system that can be hooked into a monitored option
HVAC Controll
Remote management (iphone and web, for instance, turn on heat when were 30 minutes away from coming back home).
Basic Profiles (home, away, etc)


Ideal system for growth:
Able to view at least still images from CCTV cams.
Ideally web broadcast option for CCTV? (is this an option?)
DVR system for CCTV
Voice modules (vs sirens, state specifically what is going on vs alarm)
Polling (Doors closed, ((doors locked - saw z-wave deadbolt options?)), etc)
Lumination controll interior
Lumination controll exterior
Sprinkler controll (hunter?)
Remote (HOMELINK?) access for lights - for instance im backing up a trailer and want my exterior lights on
Remote switches for lights, for instance outside lights are at front door, garage is on other side of house (where lights are) but isnt wired.

Scheduling online via PC would be nice as well.





I have listened to an installer suggesting UPB, however, some things I would like to integrate with wireless - for instance garage and lighting controll from vehicles. We also have thought of using iphones as controllers (especially when out of the house). The idea to turn lights on and off to mimic normal life is attractive.

Pysical structure of the house is a 2 story with raised basement, approximately 1100 sqft per floor, attached garage.


So my questions to you guys are, would the Elk/Omni be disqualified due to lack of support or expandability? We would like to be able to get a base system that has lots of integration options and is highly popular.


I would keep reading your lovely forum (into it about 3 hours now) but if i dont wake up early enough tomorrow morning to make it for our bike ride, my wife will have my ass!! B)

 

[jokah]

ok, i have had a lot of views, no responses which is strange.

this leads me to believe that i have somehow offended the general audience of this forum. What the duece? Any insight as to the lack of insight?

 

[ano]

ok, i have had a lot of views, no responses which is strange.

this leads me to believe that i have somehow offended the general audience of this forum. What the duece? Any insight as to the lack of insight?

Many questions. I like HAI and I think either an Omni IIe or a OmniPro II would work for you. I'd probably say the latter because you might run out of capability later on and its better to pay a bit more now, that have to switch out panels later. I know from experience.

Sounds like you have prewiring, like I did, but you will find some doors they missed or extra ones you want, so wireless will probably come into play. You can mix wired and wireless and there isn't a problem. For example, we use wireless key fobs to arm the system and you'll always need that one wireless smoke for where they forgot to wire.

I think a good strategy is this. Get the panel first, and get your security and HVAC control going. Programming is not great, but it will get you started. Next add WebLink II or WL3, then you can access the system with the web, iPhone, Blackberry, etc.

The next stage is to add HomeSeer or CQC. These two programs connect to HAI (I'd recommend CQC between the two, but have used both). At this point your possibilities are endless. Either can control anything so you can add touchscreens in your home, and add complex programming that is way beyond the HAI, add text to speech, etc. Maybe you'll never get to the PC stage, but its there if you want it. HAI really has good video camera support and good audio support without a PC.

For lighting, UPB is the way to go. You can install switches yourself or have someone else do it, but its not hard to do it yourself. I know others will disagree, but I would stay away from Insteon and Z-Wave, especially Insteon. UPB is the professional way to go and it just works.

Also, if you just need iPhone access, there is a free app. call @Home in the Apple app. Store that talks to Ethernet HAI panels. It was a bit buggy when I tried it, but in a pinch it could work. HAI's WebLink works better, but its $250 more.

 

[signal15]

I'm happy with my ELK. I haven't started doing the lighting/thermostats yet, but I've done a bunch with the security and played around with their automation rules and other things.

I went back and forth and eventually chose the ELK because it seems to have a better DIY community and has excellent DIY support direct from the manufacturer.

As far as lighting goes, I will probably do Z-wave if I was to do it now. Otherwise if some decent, and reasonably priced Zigbee Pro switches every come out, I'll get those instead. There is a possibility I'd do Insteon, the price is right. Some people I know have it with no problems, but I keep hearing about issues with it.

I think ultimately, I will need some sort of add-on home automation server. But the ELK is a good core for the system and I don't have it integrated with enough stuff yet to warrant even looking at products like CQC/Homeseer/Domotiga/etc.

 

[Neurorad]

The best consumer is an informed consumer. Put the time in, learn all you can so you know what the installer is talking about.

I think HAI will work fine for your needs.

You could use Elk or HAI, or any alarm controller that uses RS232 control. You just need to have an installer that is familiar with the chosen system.

Since your installer uses HAI, sounds like a no-brainer. You may want to consider some other estimates, however. Pick up the phone, find other HAI installers (find an Elk installer, while you're at it).

Once you do the research online, though, you'll see how much fun it can be, and you'll want to DIY some stuff.

Find an installer that lets you tweak and expand your own system, as a requisite for purchase (though your warranty on the $600 controller may disappear). He can lock you out of the system, to protect it, and his revenue.

 

[GraysonPeddie]

I'd rather do the installation of Elk M1 Gold instead of letting the installer do it for me, if I were you. DIY'ing your stuff can save you money!

As for going with a lighting solution, consider going with either Z-Wave or UPB (I don't recommend Insteon as I'm planning to migrate away from it and go with Z-Wave for better support).

 

[jokah]

Thanks guys.

This installer may or may not be fair priced. However theres a 2x+ markup for kits and installation compared to what i have found new. For instance, omniproII kits are 1400 from some sites, but dealer is at around 3500. So I will be getting additional quotes as well.

Thank you all for the feedback. Especially doing it in waves portion.

The one thing is on UPB and Zwave/zigbee - I have read that people have griped about a 200-600 ms delay on switches for UPB. This will drive my wife nuts, and supposedly Zwave is instant on at the switch level.

We most likely wont be doing home automation macros so to speak, like "sexytime" to turn lights to Dim and play barry white. The ideal part of automation would be to remotely controll lighting when away, or to have one place to set things on timers, or turn on lights in garage/outside from a keyfob or by using homelink/etc controlls in cars.

So this considered, would UPB still be the way of doing it?

 

[Neurorad]

$3500 for just the hardware kit? I guess he needs to make a profit on hardware, to survive.

You could buy the hardware yourself, and then try to find an installer, though I don't know how successful you'll be. In theory, it will be as if you had an existing system that just needs work.

 

[jokah]

Well in all honesty, the elements that i find daunting would be simply fishing the prewired lines out of the wall to install keypads.

Finishing adding doormagnets (since they only put contacts on, nothing on the doors themselves unless a pounded sideways nail works good enough.

And hooking into thermostats. Theres lines for them bundles, but I dont know what they are. Ie, is it a sep line behind our current themostats, so we have 2, 1 running to furnace, 1 to controller, or what.



I will call around i guess and see what i can find

 

[ano]

The one thing is on UPB and Zwave/zigbee - I have read that people have griped about a 200-600 ms delay on switches for UPB. This will drive my wife nuts, and supposedly Zwave is instant on at the switch level.

So this considered, would UPB still be the way of doing it?

I think your talking about the older UPB switches. The delay gives the switch time to get a double-click. I have 60+ of these switches in my house and my wife has never said a word, and if something bothered her, SHE would tell me. It's never bothered me either. I think most people are making more of the delay then the reality. In any case, they have introduced Gen II UPB switches make this delay adjustable to address those complaints. You can get these if it really bothers you.

In any case, no matter what switch you consider, buy one to try them out before buying lots. You'll see, the "delay" thing is a non-issue for most people, but try it for yourself to really know.

Also, between ELK and HAI, and between UPB and Z-Wave,
HAI "tends" to be more dealer installed and ELK tends to be more User installed.
UPB "tends" to be more dealer installed, and Z-Wave tends to be more User installed.

BUT having said that, don't think that a user can't install HAI or UPB. You can, there lots of places to buy either, and contrary to many things I see posted, HAI is very happy to talk with and help end-users with problems and solve them and I have several examples of this.

 

[MikeB]

I think your talking about the older UPB switches. The delay gives the switch time to get a double-click. I have 60+ of these switches in my house and my wife has never said a word, and if something bothered her, SHE would tell me. It's never bothered me either. I think most people are making more of the delay then the reality. In any case, they have introduced Gen II UPB switches make this delay adjustable to address those complaints. You can get these if it really bothers you.

Just another opinion - I absolutely hated the delay in Simply Automated Gen1 UPB devices when installed for testing in my home. Nothing more annoying than hitting a switch, walking into a room and getting 2-3 steps in before the light turns on. I've never used a Gen2 device, but from what I understand it's a big improvement.

 

[jokah]

Well whats hard is there are a lot of great posts on UPB vs Z-wave, but they are all from 2005.


I cant tell now whats what.

Is there an instant on option for both switches? Double tap, etc?

What happens in the case of 2way & 3way switches. Each would be replaced?

Do all UPB and Zwave switches have dimmer on and dimmer off? I have a dim switch in my office thats a double tap, dim on and off and my wife cant stand it. I love having preset dim level and double tap for full on options.

 

[signal15]

$3500?? That's insane. Usually, if I don't use someone for something because their prices are insane, I will call them and let them know *WHY* I didn't go with them and how far off they were. A few weeks ago, I needed about 5 hours of landscaping work done that I didn't have time to do. 2 quotes were around $2200 just for labor. The last quote was $500 which I could live with. The guy was done in about 4 hours and did an awesome job. I called the other 2 guys back and told them I had found someone that would do it for $500. I understand that people want to make money, but there's fair pricing, and then there's gouging people who don't know any better.

And, $3500 for something you can get elsewhere for $1400 would be considered price gouging. It should be insulting to you, because these guys are assuming that you are an idiot.

In any case, fishing the wires back up through the holes in the wall for the keypads should be easy. If you don't want to do it, pay someone to come out and do that part for you, and then do the rest yourself. The magnets in the doors are usually installed with a 3/8" drill bit lined up with the switch, and then you just push it into the hole and it stays there from friction. They are ridiculously easy, unless you have a fiberglass door frame like I did on my sliding patio door, a little JB Weld fixed it all up though. Hmm, as a kid, I once used JB Weld to epoxy someone's front storm door shut. ray:

 

[royalj7]

I'll put my vote in for UPB...it's been rock solid communication, I don't even need a coupler even though I have one ready to install if needed. The SA switches feel good, have nice tactile response, and the changeable face plates are great.

As to the installers price, it's only overpriced or gouging if 1) You can find someone else to do it for cheaper, or 2) You're willing to do it yourself. Labor is expensive in about any industry. I've never fished a wire that was "easy" though some are not nearly as bad as others.

 

[jokah]

well to be fair when installer was quoting me for the basic system. He figured a couple of hours. So I figured on cost+ $100 an hr or so. Which would be around 1500-2000. Not 3500 or so.

The neighborhood I am in mustve profiled me differently.



Wheres a good place to read up on upb wiring? Books, websites, etc?

I understand Zwave/Zigbee, etc, because it just makes sense. But upb makes me confused.

It seems as if they remove the use of a dual ground using white as a form of communicator? Is this passable by NEC codes? or will inspectors get pissy and I should consider doing it after a basement remodel?