Wiring my house for Network! Yet another thread!

[Del91574]

I thought it was clear that I mentioned that it was in our area. It can also be interpreted as being contained within the NEC, depending on how tight or loose you want to read the articles. If push came to shove, while I don't like it, the fact is the AHJ's are correct, a Ty-rap is only designed for bundling, dressing or harnessing cabling, it is not for structural support of a cable bundle. If you go back through the history of running electrical before cable ties existed, lacing used to be the method, and if you know how cable lacing works and is installed, then it's a clearer picture of why they are taking the stance they are. There's a reason why places like NASA don't allow ty-raps everywhere either.

As I stated, on one of our sites, I deal with multiple building classifications across the "campus", from towers to multiple story residence buildings, the AHJ's are the building officials, the representitives for the owners, the city fire marshal and the state fire marshal, and that's what the decision was on a bunch of remodel and retrofits, and again, I may not like it, I know the position and justification. It's not a tripping hazard, it's a entanglement hazard.

 

[tmbrown97]

No AHJ will be inspecting the OP's property; if they do, AHJ's out here for modest homes don't give a crap about LV except where it violates a golden rule, like the wrong cable type in commercial space, or not filling the holes in your fire breaks with foam.

The OP has stated he's running his cables beneath his home in a crawl space that's not very tall. That's only an entanglement hazard for the skunks and squirrels - nothing the fire department or inspector will care about. He'll be fine. It's not a tower or a multi-family dwelling or anything like that.

We get it - in a tower or a McMansion, AHJ's inspect your work and you have potential personal liability; but for a standard homeowner pulling a few wires, it doesn't have to be this dramatic.

 

[Neurorad]

I have similar 12 port patch panels in my Channel Vision enclosure. The patch panels are pretty tall.

Since your order is probably in, just check the fitment when they arrive.

I'm using the CV depth extension ring, so depth isn't an issue for mine.

And don't use pins to secure the patch panel brackets, use screws, from HD/Lowes.

 

[Del91574]

Work,

I'm not going to argue a point, but as a pro and someone that works in this trade daily, carries multiple trade licenses and is not a hobbyist, my view is this:

If you're going to tell someone how to do it or suggest how to do it, wouldn't it be far more fitting to tell them the proper and code compliant way to do it instead of the "you can do it, we can help" way of doing it, a-la a certain orange store that employs some people that may or may not have the knowledge to suggest solutions. A monkey can sling wire in ty-raps or velcro and hope for the best, but the fact remains, if you're going through the effort to do something, shouldn't it be done properly?

To put it your way, I can hook my hose up to my faucets, use a big piece of flexible line for the waste pipe since it'll never be inspected or looked at in my modest house, sure it'll work, but is it the right way to do plumbing for a reliable and long term install? How well is it really going to perform and function?

 

[tmbrown97]

Lets bring the level of drama down a bit and pay attention to the actual scope here. This is, after all, a DIY forum.

There are simple quantifiable reasons not to use hose for faucets or flex-line for waste pipe. Same if he were proposing running electrical cords inside his wall - all things he shouldn't do, and we could quote the reasons why which include the severity of the complications he'll be more likely to suffer.

That said, if this is over what he hangs he wires with, it's getting a bit extreme. I can understand why such issues would be relevant in a tower or multi-unit dwelling or a large-enough house or commercial setting, as these are environments where these risks hold some merit due to the sheer number of wires involved and routed through a given space. But for a homeowner running 3-4 wires down a 25ft section of his house, come on - do you really think these are areas of concern? Is he *really* going to create an entanglement hazard and put someone's life at risk if there are 3 pieces of Cat5 secured by a velcro strap? I proposed a couple decent options, including stack-its and arlington's loop hangers - but the OP was looking for something he could grab from the store quickly.

Interestingly enough, how is the hook he mentioned *that* much different than a bridal ring? or an Arlington Loop Hanger *that* much different than a tie-wrap with a screw on it? It may not be what you or I would carry in a tool bag for several reasons, but at the end of the day, they'll get the job done. I'm open to any legitimate reasons why they wouldn't function in much the same manner or would cause problems (other than by a bull-headed inspector).

Pro's do things differently; there are different tools, different accessories, etc - some because of code issues; many based on installer efficiencies, and a lot out of pure professionalism. That doesn't make it wrong for a homeowner to improvise a little as long as they aren't creating risk in some fashion to the structure, its occupants, or any emergency personnel that may respond.

 

[Del91574]

To keep it brief,

Honestly, I'd recommend using either the blue or grey cable staples for a HO running cabling. Cheap, they work, and provided they're not driven home, cable integrity is maintained. Stackers would also be a valid, although more expensive, option.

One of the first things BISCI and TIA will state is never use drive rings, bridle rings or similar, they don't offer large enough bearing points for the cable and over time, the cables on the bottom end up getting guillotined by the other cables. 3-4 cables, maybe not, but a decent home network, phone and nowadays, TV, those category cables add up. I'd even say, without taking a pentascanner and shooting the cabling, cables hanging from ty-raps would end up within the realm of a drive ring or other hardware when viewed graphically. May not be red flag quantification immediately on the network, but as TCP/IP and home networks start to evolve further, it's something that's really going to start to show it's ugly head as the hardware does not perform as it should.

Without getting into hard specifics regarding a loop or sling hanger being different from a ty-rap, there's significant enough differences in construction, materials and installation compared to ty-raps. I doubt most would ever look (or have to) but go deep on a datasheet or architectual specs, it's pretty significant.

As far as putting people's life at risk regarding velcro...without getting into huge specifics regarding my life within the trade and projects I've done, NASA has a bunch of examples for materials and bad results. Same goes with a few hotels and a large nightclub in the next state over from me, brought about huge code changes, both local and federal. There's a reason as a pro I would suggest someone to do it right the first time.

As far as networks go, they're not going away, and honestly, in the residential side, sooner or later (I'm voting the first) IT as a home service is going to happen since HO's and most DIY are not going to be able to maintain their own networks and IP based systems beyond DHCP and WI-FI. Either way, I'll be looking at all these networks and it's going to either be a nice retrofit project or a nice service contract to repair/replace an improperly installed network.

 

[tmbrown97]

:horse:

OP - please let us know how it all goes or if any new questions come up. And I'll tell you what - if you follow the advice in this thread and have any issues with your cables, I'll come down with my Fluke to check/certify them for you. I'm driving to Monterey for an install in a week and a half; I'll be passing right by with a truck full of tools anyways

 

[activemind]

:horse:

OP - please let us know how it all goes or if any new questions come up. And I'll tell you what - if you follow the advice in this thread and have any issues with your cables, I'll come down with my Fluke to check/certify them for you. I'm driving to Monterey for an install in a week and a half; I'll be passing right by with a truck full of tools anyways

Thank You so much for the offer W2P ray:

I was going to post an update but things got a little crazy at work so even though I got update emails, I never got a chance to visit the forum.

So the update is that the stuff from monoprice came in yesterday.

Looking at the monoprice stuff, I am impressed by the quality. I installed one of the mudrings yesterday and it fit nicely. Seems quite sturdy .. overall happy.

Also, the vertical patch panel is also impressive. Looks quite sturdy and its very similar to the screw and mount from Leviton I was looking at.
I mean, there is a panel that connects to the can and this front patch panel connects to that.
So , in future, if you have to swap cables or add new ones, you dont have to unscrew the whole thing. Just unlatch the front panel and flip it around.
Thats exactly what I wanted.

Also, I decided to go with Leviton 42" rather than CV 50" because there is something going on with CV and 50" is backordered everywhere. Two places said that they were supposed to get a shipment from CV but nothing showed up as yet.

Waiting for the SME to come in, tracking says Tue of this coming week.

I plan to finish up all the holes this weekend and attach the mudrings, and run the wires.

Terminate everything in the space under the stairs and wait for the SME to come in.

I will be leaving all the wires on the floor for now because I havent had a chance to read through all the suggestions from Dell yet. I saw some real good suggestions from him in one of the posts. Thanks for not 'bowing' out and offering help

I will post updated pics later today. Today is finally the "D-Day' :rockon:

 

[activemind]

Okay! So everything started hunky dory today!

And then I got stuck. I cant figure out "Where" to drill hole from the bottom when I am in my crawl space.

I know the approx postition and I can hear my buddy tapping from the top, but is there a better technique.

He suggested magnets, one from the top and one from the bottom....is there a better way?

And just a note of Thank You to all of you. I spent quite some time in the crawl space today, its not that bad. It got a little hard to breathe because of the mask, but I am not that comfortable yet to take the mask off.

Also, I found some rat/mice droppings, so I will research what do I need to take with me next time and spray/spread it all over to disinfect it.

Overall, not bad, but if you guys can help me with this, then maybe I can go back sometime tomorrow again and try drilling holes!

 

[hagak]

You want to inspect where you think you will be drilling into in the crawl space to make sure you will not hit anything. But you should always drill from above down so you know you are inside the wall.

 

[tmbrown97]

Because most houses are on slabs out here, I don't go under houses much - but there are two techniques I've used...
1. Use a long flexible drill bit and drill from the hole you made for the mud-ring down. A lot of those bits even have a little hole in the tip so your buddy could drill down, then you attach a string or a wire hook for him to pull back up.
2. Cut an 8" straight piece of metal coat hanger from the bottom section where it's straight - chuck that into your drill, then get right up at the edge of the wall and use it to drill down. When you see that, you know to move over 3" and drill up into the wall cavity.

 

[Del91574]

While the above posts will work...

1. Very dangerous and easy to pop outside the wall, sheetrock, trim, basically everything you don't want to do. I would not recommend a novice to try using a flex bit.

2. While a coathanger will work, the hole it'll leave is very large, especially in the case of hardwood if you can't go through a seam. I suggest using a insulation stay (the metal rods that are used to hold insulation batts in floor bays. They're tempered and smaller. I'd change the dimension to drill up from 3" to 2- 2 1/2". I think 3" would be too close to the other side of the wall, especially if any "english" is thrown in while drilling.

In addition to 2: drill up with the smallest bit you can get your snake through in addition to the wiring. Unless you're running a larger romex, 1/2" -3/4" is large enough to run a lot of cabling through. Any larger bits/bundles, you should proceed with more caution or drill for multiple runs.

 

[activemind]

Okay, so after trying everything, I am going to have to buy a flex bit.

Thanks for the heads up Del, I will be careful when using it!

How about Klein Tools or this Klein Tools kit

Also, I am not sure if I want a 3/4" or a 1" hole. My gut tells me 1" but maybe I will go with 2 3/4" holes instead of one larger one. Don't know!

Another update, the Leviton box is out of stock from the place I ordered. So they shipped me the hinged cover which arrived yesterday but I still don't have the enclosure.

Maybe I will go ahead and cancel that part of the order and buy it someplace else.

Sometimes, I question why am I this cheap. I could spend another $15 and buy it from a place that has it in stock, but no, I go ahead and wait for this place because its $15 cheaper :blink:

 

[Del91574]

I'd recommend the feeler bit and then use a paddle bit with an extension or buy the 16" long ones first and drill up from below unless absolutely physically impossible.....hitting a nail with diversa bits drilling blind will ruin your day, not to mention possibly your wall and the bit. It may take slightly longer or a trip or two more into the crawlspace, but it's far safer. Most people when starting out snaking don't take into consideration how deep they actually have to drill to get through the subfloor and bottom plate of the wall, basically 2" before popping into the hollow rather than popping through relatively quickly.

The placement tool does help, I've never owned one, but it'll take some of the strain (and burn) from your hands while guiding the bit. I have heard of guys putting tennis balls over the shaft of the bit to help center the bit, again, I've never seen it.

 

[tmbrown97]

I know there's mixed reviews on those bits - I've used them and one thing I kinda like is that the little screw tip helps a little if you place it right in the center of the cavity, it's not likely to jump as easily as some of the other styles. It does take practice to get the flex right so it goes down and not diagonal. Never tried the positioner; seen it though. When you're first learning, you'll find that it's easy for the shaft to burn grooves in the sheetrock around the opening; or worse yet, if you put the mud ring in then drill, it'll do a number on it.

I don't use flex-bits nearly as often as others might just because of the type of home construction out here - but if you're having trouble coming up from below, then well, I guess down from above is the next choice.

Definitely make sure you're inspecting the area where you are to drill down to make sure it's clear of obstructions. It'd really ruin your day to go through a pipe.