X-10 to Insteon Translator First Impressions

[upstatemike]

I've been playing around with the new X-10 to Insteon translator a little bit today and so far I am very pleased with it. It basically turns my X-10 control grid in my Stargate into a 256 button Insteon keypad.

First thing I did was pick a light where I had recently replaced the X-10 switch with an Insteon one but had NOT programmed the old X-10 address into the new Insteon switch. (I confirmed that clicking the switch in stargate bo longer contrlled the switch before getting started.) I then linked the old X-10 address to the switch through the translator. Next I cross linked the switch back to the X-10 address through the translator so the Stargate would know if it was operated manually.

The thing just worked. It was just like the Stargate was speaking native Insteon. If I cligked the switch in Stargate it turned On. If I turned the switch Off manually the status changed in Stargate. I then unplugged the translater and tried to control the switch just to make sure it was still operating in pure Insteon mode. No translator, no Stargate control, as expected.

Finally I moved the translater down to the basement and plugged it ito the feed-through outlet on the Stargate's PowerLinc (Smarthome's version of the TW523). I used some filters and stuff to isolate the AC circuit so no X-10 or Insteon traffic could get out into the house so the Stargate and translator could talk to each other but not to anything else. I did some tests to verify that I could not control the light from Stargate.

Next I plugged an RF SignaLinc into the Feed-through outlet on the translator and one on the circuit where my test switch is located. Full control in both directions slick as anything!

This last test is important because like any X-10 device the translator is susceptible to stray noise causing false X-10 triggers which in turn could generate false Insteon transmissions. Once I convert to 100% Insteon, I will isolate the translation circuit like this to prevent any chance of this happening.

Later tonight I'll convert a motion contolled light that Stargate operates via X-10 to Insteon only and see if the translator adds any additional latency over the straight X-10 signal.

 

[BLH]

Thank you for the data. Will be looking for more results as you get deeper into it.

 

[Mark S.]

Not to rush things, but...how does it do with dim commands?

Mark

 

[tanstaaf1]

I've been playing around with the new X-10 to Insteon translator ...in my Stargate

Very exciting!

(1) Am I understanding correctly that the translator gets its signal in X10 format over the powerline and then transcribes it into Insteon format? How does it know which messages to translate ... or does it translate all X10 signals it gets?

(2) Is this the unit: http://www.smarthome.com/2414x.html

(3) What Insteon functionality is left out? I notice the above unit is clearly marked as a "beta" unit (with a free upgrade to the final product) and I recall on the HomeSeer forum someone stating that Insteon wasn't designed to work with a HA "master"controller (such as Stargate or HomeSeer) and supposedly had no ability to alert such a controller if the state of the Insteon device was changed by any other (non-Master) source. I took this to mean that an Insteon device would acknowledge receipt of requests but wouldn't otherwise volunteer information on a change in its state (such as if another device or a manual switch change resulted in a change of state).

(4) I'm surprised to hear that Stargate is getting info back from the Insteon device via X10. I (mistakenly, obviously) thought Stargate was oblivious to 2 way on X10 as I thought I was told so by the Stargate folks (I know they told me that extended X10 codes intended to go back to Stargate were castrated by the I/O chip they had to use. How is this accomplished?

Forgive me if you feel I should already know any of the answers to my questions. I'm trying not to assume I know the answer as that has gotten me into trouble before.

 

[upstatemike]

Not to rush things, but...how does it do with dim commands?

Mark

Can't get dim commands to work yet. I need to find out for sure that they are supported in the beta.

 

[upstatemike]

I've been playing around with the new X-10 to Insteon translator ...in my Stargate

Very exciting!

(1) Am I understanding correctly that the translator gets its signal in X10 format over the powerline and then transcribes it into Insteon format? How does it know which messages to translate ... or does it translate all X10 signals it gets?

You Link X-10 addresses to Insteon devices during setup

(2) Is this the unit: http://www.smarthome.com/2414x.html

Yes

(3) What Insteon functionality is left out? I notice the above unit is clearly marked as a "beta" unit (with a free upgrade to the final product) and I recall on the HomeSeer forum someone stating that Insteon wasn't designed to work with a HA "master"controller (such as Stargate or HomeSeer) and supposedly had no ability to alert such a controller if the state of the Insteon device was changed by any other (non-Master) source. I took this to mean that an Insteon device would acknowledge receipt of requests but wouldn't otherwise volunteer information on a change in its state (such as if another device or a manual switch change resulted in a change of state).

All Insteon devices transmit their status when activated manually to other devices they are linked to as long as you establish the link to work in both directions. Since a master controller should be linked to all devices it will be aware of all manual operations. Think of a master controller like an Insteon Keypad with buttons for every Insteon device in your house. Just like with keypads, you have to set up 2-way links between each device and button to have the Kepad LEDs stay in sync. Same deal with a master controller.

If you set up 2-way links in the translator between an Insteon device and an X-10 address then a manual push of the Insteon switch will generate an Insteon signal that will be translated to an X-10 command to the controller. The Homeseer forum might not be your best resource for Stargate information.

(4) I'm surprised to hear that Stargate is getting info back from the Insteon device via X10. I (mistakenly, obviously) thought Stargate was oblivious to 2 way on X10 as I thought I was told so by the Stargate folks (I know they told me that extended X10 codes intended to go back to Stargate were castrated by the I/O chip they had to use. How is this accomplished?

The Stargate uses a TW523 for X-10 communication and that is the device that does not receive extended codes. (Not a chip in the Stargate). This is not related to Insteon translation which as far as I know is not using extended codes. So far I haven't even gotten the beta unit to do plain old dimming commands. It is tracking On and Off commands fine but that is all that is being translated to this point. Hopefully some more documentation will be published soon so I know what it is supposed to be able to do!

Forgive me if you feel I should already know any of the answers to my questions. I'm trying not to assume I know the answer as that has gotten me into trouble before.

 

[upstatemike]

Here is an update of my testbed setup for the next few days:

2 wireless X-10 hawkeye motion sensors -> WGL wireless X-10 receiver - (via wired inputs) ->Stargate -> X-10/Insteon Translator -> RF SignaLinc -> RF SignaLinc -> 2 Insteon dimmers.

This is a high traffic area that has a long history of running with X-10. It will be easy to compare if there is any added delay or anything now that I have removed the X-10 addresses from the switches and added the translator and RF SignaLincs to the mix.

So far so good!

 

[tanstaaf1]

I'm not understanding all of your answer because I have no X10 hands on experience to tie it to. Still, I gather that it is working, which is the essential.


I'm in the process of ordering this, along with a couple ICONs, a Keypadlinc V2 and one (or two? I'm thinking two) SwitchLinc V2 Starter KITS. (I know you know but for others: http://www.smarthome.com/2492.html). (God, the money goes quickly! I'm up to almost $500 already!)

Question: So does Stargate known when you use the Controlinc remote controller to switch a light on?

I'd say this is the big test; "Enquiring minds want to know!"

 

[upstatemike]

Question: So does Stargate known when you use the Controlinc remote controller to switch a light on?

This is a good question because it can be confusing when comparing insteon to other protocols. If you set up a link between a ContoLinc and a switch then the ControLinc can turn on the light but it is a private exchange. No other drvice can listen in to the activity.

If you want Stargate to know when you press the ControLinc button to control the light then you must create a separate conversation (link) between the button and the Stargate. That way when the button on the ControLinc is pressed it sends two messages, one to the switch and one to Stargate (actually the translator module) so they both know the button was pressed.

If you want Stargate to know when the switch is operated locally then you have to create another link between the switch and Stargate so it will get the message when you push the switch paddle.

Example:

You have a switch (Switch1) and a button on a ControLinc (Button1). Lets say you also want Stargate to control Switch1 so you assign it an X-10 address A1. You then need to do the following to make it work right-

Link Button1 to Switch1

Link Button1 to the X-10 address A1 through the translator (so stargate knows when you operate Switch1 with the ControLinc)

Link X-10 address A1 to Switch1 through the translator so Stargate can control the switch.

Link Switch1 to the X-10 address A1 through the translator (opposite of previous link) so Stargate knows when you operate Switch1 locally.

This gives you a simple setup with everything in sync.

Now for the confusing part!

If you unlink Button1 from Switch1 and link it to Switch2 instead Stargate will never know it. As far as the translator is concerned Button1 is still linked to X-10 address A1 and that is all it knows. If you now press Button1 to turn on Switch2 then Stargate is still going to think you turned on Switch1. If you turn Switch2 off locally, Stargate will never know because you didn't set up any links between Switch2 and the translator. If you turn Switch1 off locally then stargate will know because the link btween Switch1 and the translator is still in place.

Confused yet?

 

[tanstaaf1]

Question:  So does Stargate known when you use the Controlinc remote controller to switch a light on?

This is a good question because it can be confusing when comparing insteon to other protocols. If you set up a link between a ContoLinc and a switch then the ControLinc can turn on the light but it is a private exchange. No other drvice can listen in to the activity....Confused yet?

Not so much confused (I think you did a good job of explaining) but ... disappointed. I guess this is where the problem comes in that can only be resolved by some sort of periodic polling? And I read something that polling in Insteon is glacially slow ... like a minute or more per device (and maybe worse under X10 protocol)?

Still, looking on the bright side, this would give the HA computer something to do late at night so I can feel it is earning its keep? ;-)

 

[ericvic]

I have just started playing around with Insteon and they do have some issues to work out but it doesn't take a minute to poll a device for its state. If you want to get its database of links then that can take a bit of time.

Eric

 

[upstatemike]

Not so much confused (I think you did a good job of explaining) but ... disappointed. I guess this is where the problem comes in that can only be resolved by some sort of periodic polling? And I read something that polling in Insteon is glacially slow ... like a minute or more per device (and maybe worse under X10 protocol)?

Rebuilding a device database is time consuming under any protocol including hardwired ones. After rebooting my Stargate it takes a minute or two to verify the state of all the devices on my RS-485 buss but once the database is re-populated the updates are instantaneous.

Hopefully any good contoller will power up knowing the previous state of the lighting table and then poll to verify actual status rather than start with an empty table on boot. Fortunately Stargate retains lighting states across reboots so it is not a big issue with X-10. (Assuming it was not down long and did not miss a lot of X-10 updates)

The advantage with Insteon is that the contoller is an active part of every message event. When you press a button linked to a switch then the button expects a reply from the switch and will resend if it doesn't get one. If you also have the button linked to the controller then the button will also require an acknowledgement that the controller got the message.

This is a better scheme than having a controller just listen to the conversation between the button and the switch and hoping it heard it. In that scenario you would have to do a lot of polling to compensate for messages the controller might have missed since there was no mechanism to assure delivery to the controller as well as the switch.

The down side is that nothing is automatic. You have to set up your links correctly for it all to work right and even simple situations end up requireing a lot of links. That is why you see so much demand for Link Management software. (And rightly so!)

 

[upstatemike]

Not to rush things, but...how does it do with dim commands?

Mark

Can't get dim commands to work yet. I need to find out for sure that they are supported in the beta.

Update-

Heard back from the Insteon beta group who stated that dimming is not supported in the beta. They are still trying to work out the timing issues involved in trying to translate and re-transmit a long string of dim commands in real time before the source stream is finished transmitting.

I'm not sure I see the value in trying to solve that problem as it's only application is for sending dim commands from a Palmpad. Since there will be Insteon Palmpad equivalents in the near future, this seems like a lot of effort being spent on a low priority feature.

I would think the main target for the translator would be people who want to use cheap X-10 motion sensors with Insteon (it already works great in that role) or those who want to use a legacy controller, like a Stargate, that isn't likely to support Insteon natively any time soon.

For controller situations the main need would be some kind of support for preset dim commands. The easiest way to accomplish this might be to treat each X-10 address as a virtual 6-button Insteon keypadLinc. X-10 ON/OFF signals would be associated with virtual KeypadLinc button 1 and the virtual small KeypadLinc buttons (2-5) would be assigned to preset dim levels. It wouldn't matter what 4 preset dim commands were chosen because the actual dim level would be determined during the linking process just the same as when you link an Insteon switch to a real KeypadLinc button.

Anyway, that is the sort of approach I would like to see them take. I guess we will have to wait and see what they decide to do with dimming in the release version.