Yet another HAI vs Elk Threas

[fxs158]

I have been reading on the forum and most of the posts that address this question seem to be older. I am ready to make my purchase and need to decide on a system.

For what I understand, at one point ELk was more DYI friendlier than HAI; but for what I see HAI has become more proactive and seems to be after the DYI market. I think they both do essentially the same, this is what I want out of my system.

I want to automate everything, audio for 9 zones via maybe nuvo "I do not like Hai's audio wall plates for their hi-fi" A video matrix, not sure if I will do component or HDMI yet, video will go to 7 zones possibly eight. Lights I have not decided but UDP is on top of my list. Reliability is important as I am the only techie in the house. I will more than likely use CQC. For security, I already have cameras installed with a dvr. The dvr has software that i can access from any computer in the house. I was thinking that I could integrate this some how to windows based tablets or something.

So with that in mind what system is more affordable and would take care of all my wants and needs.

Thanks

 

[signal15]

When I bought all of my stuff back in June, I priced out ELK and HAI. The ELK came in around $1500 for what I bought at the time, and to get the same functionality with the HAI, it was about $1900.

In the grand scheme of things though, the price difference isn't huge considering you are the one that's going to be living with it, probably for a considerable period of time. I would create a list of must-haves and nice-to-haves, and pick the system that has more of them. In reality, if you're planning on getting CQC or one of the other automation apps, your panel really probably doesn't matter that much as long as it can integrate to the HA application you choose.

I ended up going with the ELK. My primary reason was security, figuring I'd do the HA stuff later, or maybe not at all. Turns out that once you start playing with this stuff and figure out what it can do, you very quickly find other objectives besides security. I can't speak for HAI because I've never touched it, but the ELK is easy to use and quite flexible. I'm very happy with mine.

As far as the comments about them not being so DIY friendly anymore, I think that's a bunch of BS. I think there was a point where they were getting hammered on support calls and emails from DIY people. I intentionally try hard to find my answer elsewhere before going to them, I know what it's like to be swamped with questions. But, when I do email or call them for support, they are responsive and helpful.

Only ELK knows the breakdown of DIY users and professional installs. But DIY undoubtedly drives some of the buzz around products. It would be insane for them to stop helping the DIY community. If it's become a staffing problem, they always have the option of yearly support contracts or per-incident fee-based support to finance the extra staff and resources. People are not necessarily smarter than they were 10 or 15 years ago, but because of the internet and other technology that people have to deal with on a day to day basis, they are taking on more difficult projects by themselves or with the support of communities like CT. 15 years ago, a DIY security system consisted of hanging some overpriced piece of crap from your door handle that chirped if someone touched it, not running network cable all over your house and programming your own panel. If HAI is becoming more DIY friendly, it's likely that they have realized that the DIY community is good for revenue directly and indirectly. I don't even have lighting control on my system yet, and everyone that sees what it does wants one.

 

[icellama21]

If you poke around you'll see the same things being discussed. On the ELK side little has changed in the last few years, although some things promised are said to be delivered in the future. On the HAI side, they have been working to create a universe of integrated products. Prior to this my opinion was that the ELK was superior and HAI was a bit outdated. Now they are almost exactly equal. Only edge up is for HAI and their platform of products, it is easier to just buy HAI and hook it up. With Elk you have to tinker and research a bit more to make things work. If you are DIY I doubt this is an issue, but for a pro installer it is easier to hook up HAI products IF you stick with HAI products.

 

[ano]

Yeah, its funny how a recession can make them much more responsive. Actually I've dealt with HAI for many years. If you call them up, you're on hold maybe 10 minutes, then your on the phone with an engineer, or sometimes even the developer that wrote the code your asking about. E-mail is almost always answered in 24 hours.

I'm not going to start the whole this is better than that thing going, but I suggest you look at their entire productlines, not just the products you are buying now. When I bought my panel I wouldn't in a million years have thought I would have expanded as much as I have, and you never want to get to the point where your limited because the company doesn't make the add-ons you need. Switching panels because you made the wrong choice can be very expensive. So look at what you will buy, what they make, and even where they are headed before you pay anyone a cent.

 

[Neurorad]

Since you say you're heading toward CQC eventually, go spend some time on the CQC forum to find out how well each works with CQC. If you're going to operate the DA system with CQC, the alarm controller's ability is a moot point.

A minor difference between M1 and OPII - with the M1 EOLRs are selectable per zone, and with OPII it's all or none.

Are your cameras compatible with the HAI 5.7e touchscreens? Will you even use HAI or Elk touchscreens, if you're running CQC?

 

[fxs158]

Since you say you're heading toward CQC eventually, go spend some time on the CQC forum to find out how well each works with CQC. If you're going to operate the DA system with CQC, the alarm controller's ability is a moot point.

A minor difference between M1 and OPII - with the M1 EOLRs are selectable per zone, and with OPII it's all or none.

Are your cameras compatible with the HAI 5.7e touchscreens? Will you even use HAI or Elk touchscreens, if you're running CQC?

Thanks for the responses, could you elaborate a little more about the alarm controller ability being a mute point if I use CQC. Also would you mind explain also about the EOLR's. The cameras are standard cameras, they are connected via a bnc connector to the dvr, I do not think that i will use hai or elk touchscreen, although i like the HAI one.

 

[ano]

Since you say you're heading toward CQC eventually, go spend some time on the CQC forum to find out how well each works with CQC. If you're going to operate the DA system with CQC, the alarm controller's ability is a moot point.

A minor difference between M1 and OPII - with the M1 EOLRs are selectable per zone, and with OPII it's all or none.

Are your cameras compatible with the HAI 5.7e touchscreens? Will you even use HAI or Elk touchscreens, if you're running CQC?

Thanks for the responses, could you elaborate a little more about the alarm controller ability being a mute point if I use CQC. Also would you mind explain also about the EOLR's. The cameras are standard cameras, they are connected via a bnc connector to the dvr, I do not think that i will use hai or elk touchscreen, although i like the HAI one.

The EOL resister is a non-issue. End-of-line resistors are a tiny resistor part which goes in series with every window or door sensor on every zone of the panel. Although some installers just include them in the panel, this defeats the purpose of them, they should be located next to the sensor itself. What they do is help the panel detect shorted cables. If the panel detects the resistance of the resistor, it knows all is well and the door/window is shut. If it detects an open circuit, the door is open. But if a dead-short is detected, it indicates the cable is shorted, which is called a fault. So basically the resister is used so the panel can detect cable shorts.

Long story short, you should always turn any EOLR ON, and use them on every zone. In fact for many types of installs they are required, and there is really NO reason not to use them. HAI and I'm sure ELK give you them with the panel, so you don't even have to buy them extra. Do you really want your smoke alarm or door sensor to NOT trigger the alarm if the cable ever shorts? I didn't think so.

 

[signal15]

Since you say you're heading toward CQC eventually, go spend some time on the CQC forum to find out how well each works with CQC. If you're going to operate the DA system with CQC, the alarm controller's ability is a moot point.

A minor difference between M1 and OPII - with the M1 EOLRs are selectable per zone, and with OPII it's all or none.

Are your cameras compatible with the HAI 5.7e touchscreens? Will you even use HAI or Elk touchscreens, if you're running CQC?

Thanks for the responses, could you elaborate a little more about the alarm controller ability being a mute point if I use CQC. Also would you mind explain also about the EOLR's. The cameras are standard cameras, they are connected via a bnc connector to the dvr, I do not think that i will use hai or elk touchscreen, although i like the HAI one.

IMO, touchscreens from the vendors are too expensive. You can get eKeypad for the iPhone/iPod touch for less (including the iPod) and it's portable. There's an HAI app also for this platform. And if you're planning on using CQC, there are better options for you.

EOLR stands for "end of line resistor." Each vendor has the capability to put a resistor at the end of each input line, preferably as close to the sensor as possible. The reasoning behind this is twofold:
- Look for trouble on the line
- Thwart an attacker that tries to cut or bridge the line to bypass a sensor.

Each vendor has a resistor value that they use. ELK is 2.2k. Not sure about HAI, I think it's less. You don't need to use these, but it's good practice. Plus, on motion sensors and other devices with tamper circuits, ELK has the capability to use 2 EOLR resistors in it and do some funkiness that gives the zone 4 possible states over 2 wires. They measure the resistance across the line to figure out what is happening. Open, Closed, 2.2k, or 4.4k. I don't think HAI has 4 state monitoring. I like it because I don't have to burn a second pair AND a separate zone for the tamper sensor. Plus, being able to turn off EOLR for certain zones can be useful if you're using them for strange purposes.

 

[pete_c]

I believe both Elk and HAI offer great combo HA/security panels.

Today both of these companies are making their products even more effective / efficient.

I personally utilize an Omni Pro II and I am comfortable with it. Had I asked a general construction contractor to install a combo security / HA panel in new construction 5-10 years ago she/he would have been clueless. Similar issues came up during construction and having to "explain" what zoned heating and cooling was to a local contractor.

I wanted to retrofit OEM BT in one of my vehicles (already had NAV and VR) and ended up using a recommended Elk audio amplifier for the BT audio. Its been about 8 years now and the amplifier is still working well without any hiccups. The BT audio quality is levels above what I have in a newer 2 year old vehicle with a similiar BT/NAV/VR setup.

I have touchscreens in my home and these are indirectly connected to the panel via my HS server. I utilize the HW IR motion sensors connected to the HAI panel for various events on my HS / HA server. I utilize the Omnistat connected to the HAI panel via the HAI console, directly and also via my HA server. You can create HVAC zones either doing some creative and inexpensive engineering or "off the shelf" depending on your budget without too much hassle.

The ability to do these various functions makes these panels unique and ideal for those HA bug bitten DIY individuals. For those non DIY HA individuals with large pockets these do all panels fit the bill and are levels above their closest competitors (are there any?).

 

[Neurorad]

Since you say you're heading toward CQC eventually, go spend some time on the CQC forum to find out how well each works with CQC. If you're going to operate the DA system with CQC, the alarm controller's ability is a moot point.

A minor difference between M1 and OPII - with the M1 EOLRs are selectable per zone, and with OPII it's all or none.

Are your cameras compatible with the HAI 5.7e touchscreens? Will you even use HAI or Elk touchscreens, if you're running CQC?

Thanks for the responses, could you elaborate a little more about the alarm controller ability being a mute point if I use CQC. Also would you mind explain also about the EOLR's. The cameras are standard cameras, they are connected via a bnc connector to the dvr, I do not think that i will use hai or elk touchscreen, although i like the HAI one.

The M1 and OPII security panels possess the ability to interface with multiple subsystems, to control them, e.g. thermostats, automated lighting, distributed audio systems. If you invest in a higher level controller, one that is more 'powerful', then the control goes to that master controller, e.g. CQC, HomeSeer, Cortexa, etc. With CQC, you could design your own touchscreen layout to control the DA. With HAI and Elk, you're more limited as to what displays on the Elk and HAI touchscreens.

Learn all you can about the master control system, before you invest in the security controller that has basic automation capabilities.

As for EOLRs, you should make up your own mind about whether to use them. Many very smart members here do not use them. Many threads here cover this. Camera integration with the HAI appears to be very expensive - read about how it's done with CQC.

Edit - since it may take a while to get the subsystems up and running, you may not have a need for CQC for a year or 2, and you may want to control as much as you can with the M1 or OPII. It's up to you.

 

[ano]

As for EOLRs, you should make up your own mind about whether to use them. Many very smart members here do not use them. Many threads here cover this.

If you want your security system to be UL approved, then EOL resistors are not optional, and many insurance companies require a UL approved security system for coverage. UL approval is also required for most government and high-security installs. Its your house and you can do what you like, just know that if you DON'T use EOL resisters, and a zone wire should get pinched and short-out, you will never know it. Use them and your panel will tell you within seconds when it occurs. There is no argument not to use them, except for laziness.

 

[Neurorad]

I seriously doubt ANY Cocooner's Elk install would meet UL requirements.

500mA max, if you have smoke detectors? 24 hours of standby power?

"Remote Downloading shall not be used on UL Listed systems" - use the keypads to program.

Speakers aren't allowed for UL-listed installs.

M1 Install Manual, page 7 - Items marked with '++' Not for use in UL Listed Systems: Serial Port, Lighting Interface, Output 1, Audio Network Connection, Aux Data Bus for wireless receiver.

I believe EOLR's are good practice, personally. But don't exagerate their effectiveness, claiming that all installs should meet UL standards.

Edit - I believe OPII installs would have the same limitations, to qualify for UL approval.

 

[ano]

I seriously doubt ANY Cocooner's Elk install would meet UL requirements.

500mA max, if you have smoke detectors? 24 hours of standby power?

"Remote Downloading shall not be used on UL Listed systems" - use the keypads to program.

Speakers aren't allowed for UL-listed installs.

M1 Install Manual, page 7 - Items marked with '++' Not for use in UL Listed Systems: Serial Port, Lighting Interface, Output 1, Audio Network Connection, Aux Data Bus for wireless receiver.

I believe EOLR's are good practice, personally. But don't exagerate their effectiveness, claiming that all installs should meet UL standards.

Edit - I believe OPII installs would have the same limitations, to qualify for UL approval.

Again your house and your choice. The UL guidelines are a baseline to go by, and believe it or not, there is a reason behind each requirement. My system meets most but probably not all the requirements, but that was a conscious decision on my part, the point being its good to understand the logic behind these requirements. Knowledge is power.

 

[sic0048]

Elk and HAI seem to leap frog each other when it comes to technology and features. Several years ago Elk was more cutting edge than HAI. But recently HAI has come out with a bunch of new features and functionality and is arguably more cutting edge today. We all expect Elk to respond it time and surpass HAI again sometime in the future.

The short answer is for most people, either system is going to be fine. But you need to write out a list of specific design requirements and a "wish list" of capabilities and see which system better meets your needs.

As a totally stereotypical answer, HAI provides more capabilities out of the box while Elk requires more add-ons to get the same capabilities as HAI out of the box. But the HAI system costs more initially while the Elk system with the add-ons will cost about the same as the HAI out of the box. So it really is about equal in price and support for comparable systems.

 

[pete_c]

Personally having installed my HAI system about 5 years ago never installed EOLR until this past year. Always had smoke detectors but never had them connected to the panel. I decided this year to add both smokes and CO detectors to the panel. Prior to doing this I decided also to put EOLR on all the zones and I probably should have done it 5 years ago...