Automation system hit by lightning

[westom]

Not quite a good diagnosis. Lightning jumping from one winding into another winding across the winding insulation is not due to any lack of grounding.

Distribution transformers may occasionally have lightning protection installed at it's primary bushings to prevent lightning surges from breaking down internal insulation but a direct hit from lightning is not stopped by lightning arresters or interwinding insulation. Most of the equipment explodes from the millions of joules and/or voltage avalaible due to the lightning hit. 

 
So you are saying engineers who did the analysis lied? Or that California lightning does not cause catastrophic damage?  Why do you believe anything inside a transformer will stop what three miles of sky cannot?  Nobody except you said anything about 'stopping' lightning.  Any protector that would do that is blown through.   So transformers have an earth ground.  Why are you arguing against what has been well understood and standard procedure for generations? 
 
Why would insulation between 'primary' (ie 33,000 volts) and 'secondary (ie 240 volts) not breakdown?  Because a transformer is properly earthed.  Then hundreds of thousands (not millions as you only assumed) of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth.
 
Insulators also remain insulators IF proven protection is not compromised.  No surge need break down insulation.  Direct lightning strikes to AC power equipment is routine without damage.  But only if that protection path is connected to earth. 
 
Engineers said why that transformer exploded.  Engineers said that transformer failure would not happen if a ground wire existed.  Why do you know they are wrong? Especially when they said what we have long understood.  Direct lightning strikes do not damage properly earthed transformers.  Then even California lightning does not create plasma that shorts 33,000 volts into a 240 volt service.
 
All utility equipment has protection either inside or attached.  In every case, that protection is earthed.  Even California can have direct lightning strikes that cause significant damage - when a critical earth ground is missing. Reality does not change because you were not there.
 
Reclosers do nothing for protection.  As made obvious by numbers.  Lightning is done in microseconds.  Reclosers operate in milliseconds or seconds.  How does a centimeters gap in a recloser avert  or block what three miles of sky could not? Obviously it does not.  It does not do protection.  It only attempts to restore service after lightning and its plasma has dissipated.
 
Recloser attempts to restore service hoping damage does not exist or has been isolated by fuses.  Your numbers make it obvious - recloser could never do lightning protection. If earth ground for a transformer has successfully protected transformer's secondary to primary volt insulation, then a recloser can restore service.  Routine is a direct strike incoming to a transformer without damage - if that transformer earth ground exists.
 
But that ground did not exist in California.  So lightning shorted 33,000 volts to 240 volt service.  Lightning did not explode that transformer into tiny pieces.  A follow through current from 33,000 volt service was shorted by a lightning compromised transformer - that was missing its earth ground. Engineers who did the analysis said so.  Even California can suffer significant damage from lightning.
 
Why claim what happened did not happen? Even California with less lightning needs that protection.

 

[mikefamig]

When did I say that plug-in protector is useless?  When a 'whole house' solution is not implemented. 

 
So  I repeat myself,  given that the building does have properly installed whole house protection which point-of-use spd would you recommend?
 
Mike.

 

[westom]

So  I repeat myself,  given that the building does have properly installed whole house protection which point-of-use spd would you recommend?

 
None.  Then a plug-in protector does not compromise protection inside nearby appliances.  Then fire is not a threat.  Figure 8.  A plug-in protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively via some nearby appliance.  These threats do not exist if a plug-in protector is used with a 'whole house' solution.  That was stated repeatedly with numbers.
 
A plug-in protector supplements the 'secondary' protection layer.  It may add 0.2% more protection.  But only when used in conjunction with what does 99.5% of the protection.
 
Again, what happens when a tens or hundreds of thousands of joules surge is to be absorbed by a plug-in protector only rated to absorb hundreds or a thousand joules?
 
No reason exists to not spend less money on a proven solution.
 
Even some cruise ships confiscate those plug-in protectors due to fire risk.   Fire that is acceptable in a house is unacceptable on ships.

 

[mikefamig]

None.  Then a plug-in protector does not compromise protection inside nearby appliances.  Then fire is not a threat.  Figure 8.  A plug-in protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively via some nearby appliance.  These threats do not exist if a plug-in protector is used with a 'whole house' solution.  That was stated repeatedly with numbers.
 
A plug-in protector supplements the 'secondary' protection layer.  It may add 0.2% more protection.  But only when used in conjunction with what does 99.5% of the protection.
 
Again, what happens when a tens or hundreds of thousands of joules surge is to be absorbed by a plug-in protector only rated to absorb hundreds or a thousand joules?
 
No reason exists to not spend less money on a proven solution.
 
Even some cruise ships confiscate those plug-in protectors due to fire risk.   Fire that is acceptable in a house is unacceptable on ships.

 
But if the whole house protector is working then the point-of-use should never be exposed to power that it can't handle and it will dissipate wht little power got past the whole house. If the whole house spd is not working then it's a moot point whether or not a point-of use exists.

 

[westom]

But if the whole house protector is working then the point-of-use should never be exposed to power that it can't handle and it will dissipate wht little power got past the whole house. If the whole house spd is not working then it's a moot point whether or not a point-of use exists.

 
Not a totally moot point.  If a 'whole house' solution has been compromised (ie protector failure, disconnected earth ground, etc), then a 'primary' protection layer might still provide sufficient protection.  Hopefully that protection layer has earthed sufficient energy. Otherwise that plug-in protector might make damage easier.  Or in rare cases, cause a fire.
 
BTW, copper thieves stealing ground wires on poles can increase risk to appliances by compromisiing the 'primary' protection layer.
 
It gets more complicated.  To appreciate various scenarios requires comprehension of metallic and longitudinal mode currents.  That plug-in protector addresses metallic mode currents that might exist due to how a 'whole  house' system is installed.  Those currents are typically made irrelevant by what is already inside appliances.  But that adjacent protector may provide an additional 0.2% protection from that one type of transient.
 
It is not useless.  It just does very little for so much money.  A typical power strip protector is a $3 strip with ten cent protector parts selling for maybe $20 or $85.  To add a some more protection from one type of surge.  A 'whole house' solution is for all types.

 

[LarrylLix]

 
So you are saying engineers who did the analysis lied? Or that California lightning does not cause catastrophic damage?  Why do you believe anything inside a transformer will stop what three miles of sky cannot?  Nobody except you said anything about 'stopping' lightning.  Any protector that would do that is blown through.   So transformers have an earth ground.  Why are you arguing against what has been well understood and standard procedure for generations? 
 
Why would insulation between 'primary' (ie 33,000 volts) and 'secondary (ie 240 volts) not breakdown?  Because a transformer is properly earthed.  Then hundreds of thousands (not millions as you only assumed) of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth.
 
Insulators also remain insulators IF proven protection is not compromised.  No surge need break down insulation.  Direct lightning strikes to AC power equipment is routine without damage.  But only if that protection path is connected to earth. 
 
Engineers said why that transformer exploded.  Engineers said that transformer failure would not happen if a ground wire existed.  Why do you know they are wrong? Especially when they said what we have long understood.  Direct lightning strikes do not damage properly earthed transformers.  Then even California lightning does not create plasma that shorts 33,000 volts into a 240 volt service.
 
All utility equipment has protection either inside or attached.  In every case, that protection is earthed.  Even California can have direct lightning strikes that cause significant damage - when a critical earth ground is missing. Reality does not change because you were not there.
 
Reclosers do nothing for protection.  As made obvious by numbers.  Lightning is done in microseconds.  Reclosers operate in milliseconds or seconds.  How does a centimeters gap in a recloser avert  or block what three miles of sky could not? Obviously it does not.  It does not do protection.  It only attempts to restore service after lightning and its plasma has dissipated.
 
Recloser attempts to restore service hoping damage does not exist or has been isolated by fuses.  Your numbers make it obvious - recloser could never do lightning protection. If earth ground for a transformer has successfully protected transformer's secondary to primary volt insulation, then a recloser can restore service.  Routine is a direct strike incoming to a transformer without damage - if that transformer earth ground exists.
 
But that ground did not exist in California.  So lightning shorted 33,000 volts to 240 volt service.  Lightning did not explode that transformer into tiny pieces.  A follow through current from 33,000 volt service was shorted by a lightning compromised transformer - that was missing its earth ground. Engineers who did the analysis said so.  Even California can suffer significant damage from lightning.
 
Why claim what happened did not happen? Even California with less lightning needs that protection.

Why claim I stated things I didn't?

Why create ficticious stories to generate a point to argue that isn't related to actual thread?

Why make indirect statements continuously by asking questions? Are you just a slimey politician?
I didn't make any statements about you. See how that works?

Why disrupt the conversation to gather attention to yourself?

Did you have a particular question that you really wanted answering or was every one rhetorical?

Why attempt to twist almost everything I stated to invoke argumentation.

Why post responses that are interpreted as only trolling as many others also have, in this forum, and other forums, where I have experienced your attempts a attention based on half truths and partial knowledge.

Why post the same phrases everywhere you go to look like a bit repeating text.

Why come to a conversation if you do not intend to interact an only ask rhetorical insulting stye questions.

Why post half the story as facts twisted to invoke conversation disruption?

These are only questions and no statements have been made about your posting style. Why?

 

[RAL]

For all his bloviating, westom has provided only two pieces of information.
 
1.  It is important to have a whole house SPD for protection from lightning.
2.  The whole house SPD needs to be properly connected to an earth ground.
 
I think both of those things were already known to just about everyone posting on this thread.

 

[westom]

For all his bloviating, westom has provided only two pieces of information.
 
1.  It is important to have a whole house SPD for protection from lightning.
2.  The whole house SPD needs to be properly connected to an earth ground.
 
I think both of those things were already known to just about everyone posting on this thread.

 
And numbers that say why.  For example, how many mistakenly believed a wall receptacle safety ground is earth ground?  How many knew that a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps.   How many knew robust protection exists inside appliances?  How many knew that a plug-in protector can earth a surge destructively through adjacent appliances?  How many knew effective protection costs about $1 per protected appliance?  How many knew how little that plug-in protector really does?  Eevn its spec numbers say so.
 
How many knew why the OP had damage inside both detached garage and house?  How many knew every wire between any two structures must be 'whole house' protected on both ends?  How many knew anything about the 'primary' protection layer?  And how that critical but missing earth ground can short high primary voltage (ie 13,000 volts) directly into the house?  How many knew what must be inspected?
 
How many knew phone lines and TV cable already have effective surge protection installed for free?  How many realized concepts demonstrated by Franklin 264 years and one day ago to protect structures is the same concept that protects household appliances?  How many knew what a let-though and a clamping voltage is - and the relevance?  How many knew why a let-through voltage and response times in those many recommended protectors is more than sufficient - once we include numbers? 
 
How many knew that APC was selling plug-in protectors so dangerous as to be removed immediately?  How many knew a power strip protector is considered so dangerous that some cruise ships may confiscate it?  How many knew why it can be dangerous?  How many knew Type 1, 2, and 3 does not define protection.  Type defines human safety requirements.  UL also does not define protection - UL is also about human safety.
 
How many knew COs suffer about 100 surges with each storm - and no damage.  Because effective protection has been that well proven for over 100 years? That telcos want up to 50 meter separation between protector and electronics because that separation increases protection.  How many knew that same solution means unplugging appliances is woefully less reliable.  How many knew sacrificial protectors are ineffective protection?  That undersizing a protector increases profits and sales, and promotes urban myths while not providing effective protection?  How many knew those big buck warranties were chock full of exemptions so as to not be honored?  
 
How many took personal insult and posted cheapshots in response to posts that constantly addressed the topic such as the OP's reason for damage: no 'whole house' protector at both ends of each wire.  For example, LarrylLix - please remain on topic without emotion.  The post was only 100% technical. If you do not like facts with numbers, then provide facts with numbers that prove a lightning strike (that cannot be blocked by three miles of sky) would not blow through transformer insulation - short 33,000 volts to 240 volts.  Or did that transformer simply disassemble itself into little pieces?
 
How many knew a protector's amp number defines protection over "many" surges over many decades while single point earth ground and its low impedance connection defines protection during "each" surge?  How many knew of the many other companies of integrity that provide effective protectors (APC, Tripplite, Belkin, Panamax, and Monster were not listed).  How many knew so many IEEE Standards and papers define earth ground as essential to protection?  And an IEEE paper from an industry guru that says a 'point of connection' protector may even create damage?  How many knew damage on an appliance is often the outgoing surge path; not an incoming path? And that surges do damage by hunting for earth destructively via appliances. That a surge incoming on AC mains is incoming to every household appliance?  And that protection always means that surge current must not be inside. How many knew even clocks, dishwasher, refrigerator, LED bulbs, furnace, bathroom GFCI, and especially smoke detectors need this protection?
 
Thanks to mikefaming, we know when a protector fails during a surge, then ""internal protection that will disconnect the surge-protective component ... will maintain power to the load now unprotected".  Yes, that is what all plug-in protectors do.  BTW, an APC model pictured in that computerworld citation also does same disconnecting even though the author only assumed otherwise.  I have a schematic for that one APC model.  Knew long ago that that APC protector was incorrectly designed - could create fires.  APC later admitted that protector (and some 15 million more) must be removed immediately to protect human life.
 
Moving on. RAL inaccurately claimed, "No lightning protection system and surge protectors ... protect your equipment from a direct or close-by lightning strike."  RAL claimed a protector plugged into a wall receptacle would  "provide a "safe" path to ground for the lightning".  That was also incorrect as demonstrated repeatedly by the expression "low impedance" and other parameters.  RAL cited
  http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
as proof that plug-in protectors are effective while completely ignoring figure 8 and other citation facts.  Figure 8 demonstrates that a protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground may even earth a surge 8000 volts destructively through any nearby appliance. Somehow that is protection?
 
We have covered, introduced, and exposed many facts, numbers, well  proven solutions, and bogus urban myths.  Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  A protector is only as effective as its connection to and quality of single point earth ground.
 
Unfortunately, only introduced was THE most critical component in every protection 'system'.  Single point earth ground.  Since every protector - even the best in the world - is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[Del91574]

CTRL-C, CTRL-V ad-nauseum.
 
I tapped out. Either a clever bot or bad troll. Amazingly the same argument all over the web.

 

[mikefamig]

Minimize the swagger. Egos get in the way of ideas. If your arrogance is more obvious than your expertise, you are someone other people avoid......just sayin.

 

[mikefamig]

For all his bloviating, westom has provided only two pieces of information.
 
1.  It is important to have a whole house SPD for protection from lightning.
2.  The whole house SPD needs to be properly connected to an earth ground.
 
I think both of those things were already known to just about everyone posting on this thread.

 
Hey I learned a new word today. I googled "bloviate" just to see if it really was a word and sure enough:
 

verb US informal
gerund or present participle: bloviating

1. 
   
   
   
   
   talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.
    
    
    
    
   
   
   
   
   

 

[ecborgoyn]

2.  The whole house SPD needs to be properly connected to an earth ground.

 
And it needs to be a "low impedance ground (ie less than 10 feet)" ^_^

 

[dementeddigital]

CTRL-C, CTRL-V ad-nauseum.
 
I tapped out. Either a clever bot or bad troll. Amazingly the same argument all over the web.

 
I didn't realize that it was a crusade, but it sure seems to be one.
 
You were smart to tap out so early.  I'm a slow learner.  ;-)
 
In any case, interesting topic.  Lots of good links and information here.

 

[ecborgoyn]

I didn't realize that it was a crusade, but it sure seems to be one.

 Wow, westom gets around the web.....  I'm impressed with the tenacity.
 
But yes, lots of good dialog.

 

[Del91574]

Amazing isn't it. Same argument and generally the same replies. Maybe it's a conspiracy by the manufacturers and Westom has the answer. Probably knows who shot Kennedy and where Hoffa is.
 
Bad troll who tries to get the documentation to agree with his viewpoint when it clearly doesn't. Maybe he installs earth grounds for a living and doesn't want the SPD guys getting in on his game.