BAT CDMA (CBAT) dual path bug....

[sorka]

Last October, I installed an ipdatatel CBAT dual IP/Cellular backup. My purpose was to monitor over IP but have a cellular backup if that failed.
 
After the system was configured and up, I tested the cellular backup by removing the RJ45 connector from the CBAT to the router and then tested my IPFob app. It worked great except that over cellular it was a lot slower taking a good 20 seconds for the fob app to update in response to changes in my Power1832 system. Still, the cellular was a backup and I was fine with it being a little slow since it would be on IP all the time and only fallback to cellular if IP failed.
 
Then Comcast went down and I lost my internet for about 4 hours one night. The CBAT was not communicating over cellular and I eventually got an email from Alarm Relay telling me it lost supervision on dsc 1832.
 
After a little experimentation, I discovered that if I unplug the RJ45, the CBAT falls over to cellular within a minute or so. But if instead, I unplug my cable modem to simulate an internet outage, the CBAT *never* falls back to cellular. I can only speculate to the reason. My guess is that there is no watchdog function and that the CBAT simply looks for an active IP or electrical connection. It does fallback to cellular 100% if I unplug the RJ45 but it fails to 100% if I leave it plugged into the router and the router on but with the coax disconnected from the Surfboard.
 
After several rounds back and fourth with support, I got an email acknowledging the issue and that a fix was in the works. 
 
Can anyone else who has a CBAT confirm the same behavior? i.e. does your IP Fob app work if you disconnect your cable modem but leave your CBAT plugged into an active router that no longer has internet access?
 
Does anyone know if there's a router that can be setup to pull the IP address from LAN devices if the WAN connection is lost?

 

[sorka]

OK, just got an email from Alarm Relay after emailing them earlier and asking for an update on the fix. Apparently it was fixed and now they're updating my CBAT and asked me to try again tomorrow. 

 

[dvpvic]

I would like to know any info as well because alarmrelay has offered me this option as an alternative to a C1M1.


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[TurboSam]

@dvpvic, I gotta ask....  
 
As someone who has been following the C1M1 since it was announced, what does AR say the CBAT offers that the C1M1 doesn't?  
 
Or is it a Telguard issue?  
 
My gut would have been to stick with an Elk product rather than a third party product for CS communications from an Elk M1, but maybe I'm missing something....?

 

[dvpvic]

@dvpvic, I gotta ask....  
 
As someone who has been following the C1M1 since it was announced, what does AR say the CBAT offers that the C1M1 doesn't?  
 
Or is it a Telguard issue?  
 
My gut would have been to stick with an Elk product rather than a third party product for CS communications from an Elk M1, but maybe I'm missing something....?

Last few things I remember reading on posts here was that it was a CDMA only, and AR wasn't UL listed. But I've also seen a post from DEL saying that they possibly have already gotten their UL listing. I don't have any experience with neither. Though I might be upgrading my XEP later depending on feed back I hear. Would be nice to have cellular back up.

 

[Del91574]

The BAT is not UL listed. I'm sure the C1M1 is (based on the carrier it's going through). Could be wrong, but haven't looked into it since it's still vaporware in my area.

 

[madas]

I recently had this issue as well.  It takes anywhere from 5-45 minutes for the IPDataTel device to realize the internet is down (but unplugging it triggers immediately).
 
They said they are sending me an updated device.  What was the resolution for you?

 

[ano]

When I started with Alarm Relay they sent me the IPDataTel also, but the more I learned about it, the more unsure I was. I didn't have your problem, but I'm not surprised. There were many red flags and I just didn't have faith in it.  The problem you had is yet another example. Do they ever test their products?
 
So I sent the IPDataTel back and Alarm Relay sent me the TG-1 Telguard.  Its like day and night.  This one IS UL listed and it has several layers of protection.  If it can't communicate with the central office ever, it opens a relay so the panel can let me know.
 
Now a few other things. The IPDataTel is CDMA (Verizon) and the TG-1 is AT&T. So if you have a poor signal of one or the other, that may be a factor.  Also, the TG-1 is ONLY cellular, the IPDataTel is cellular & IP.  I'm sure there are other versions of both, but this is what Alarm Relay seems to use. Also, Alarm Relay charges $2 - $3 more dollars a month to monitor the TG-1, but I think its money well spent. 
 
Also one final thing. The HAI Omni Pro II had a "bug" that sometimes prevented it from working great with the IPDataTel.  That was another reason for the TG-1.  But I BELIEVE the Omni bug was recently fixed with Ver. 4.0b firmware, so it might not be an issue now if you upgraded and use an Omni.

 

[dvpvic]

So I sent the IPDataTel back and Alarm Relay sent me the TG-1 Telguard.  Its like day and night.  This one IS UL listed and it has several layers of protection.  If it can't communicate with the central office ever, it opens a relay so the panel can let me know.
 
Now a few other things. The IPDataTel is CDMA (Verizon) and the TG-1 is AT&T. So if you have a poor signal of one or the other, that may be a factor.  Also, the TG-1 is ONLY cellular, the IPDataTel is cellular & IP.  I'm sure there are other versions of both, but this is what Alarm Relay seems to use. Also, Alarm Relay charges $2 - $3 more dollars a month to monitor the TG-1, but I think its money well spent. 

How much do you pay a month for the TG-1? So would I still be able to use the cellular network to unapt status to the ekeypad app or some other 3rd phone/app/email zone and status information. For now I have a m1xep installed but want something more bullet proof, so Ive been debating wether to upgrade to the C1M1 or the CBAT from AR.

 

[ano]

How much do you pay a month for the TG-1? So would I still be able to use the cellular network to unapt status to the ekeypad app or some other 3rd phone/app/email zone and status information. For now I have a m1xep installed but want something more bullet proof, so Ive been debating wether to upgrade to the C1M1 or the CBAT from AR.

I'm not sure of the price per month.  $21 I think.  Maybe $23
 
For monitoring and control there are better options. First, you could get the Omni email board. It can email when the alarm goes off, etc.  Note that it only SENDS OUT emails, it doesn't receive them.
 
For remote monitoring and control, use Leviton Snaplink, or SPACE. Neither are great, but both get the job done. The company that made SPACE says they will have a new version "soon" but they have been saying that for years. Also Snaplink for iPhone or Android are fine for most things. With each you can see your log, the status of each zone and light.

 

[sorka]

I recently had this issue as well.  It takes anywhere from 5-45 minutes for the IPDataTel device to realize the internet is down (but unplugging it triggers immediately).
 
They said they are sending me an updated device.  What was the resolution for you?

 
I got a software update which sort of fixed it but not really. Prior to the update, the CBAT would never switch over to cellular as long as it had an active IP lease even if there was no actual internet. After the update, it switches over on a message by message basis with a pretty long timeout. i.e it continues to try and send over IP and eventually gives up after 10 minutes or so and then goes through cellular. However, it continues to do this for each notification so everything is VERY late. Far too late for acceptable first responder notification times. 
 
Alarm Relay says this is the way it is and they suggest that I unplug the ethernet cable. But that's unacceptable. I bought this as a dual path solution because I have both Verizon and Comcast outages occasionally throughout the year. So far never both at the same time. Therefore if the product was working correctly, then there would, so far, have always been a valid notification path.
 
Waiting for them now to decide what to do next. At this point, I'm ready to ditch them and go back to my local company and get a hardwired phone line like I had before. 
 
What's remarkable is that this bug opens both ipdatatel and Alarm Relay up to considerable liability should property loss or casualty occurs because of it.

 

[madas]

Hi Sorka,
 
Yes - 10 mins is not acceptable (even for the first outage)...but 10 minutes for EVERY message is awful.
 
I found that mine would switch to CDMA after about 10 minutes and then messages would go out quickly.  So this does sound like a slight improvement.  They shipped me a new device which should arrive early next week as we spoke with IPDataTel and they confirmed this is not the intended behaviour.  I'll let you know if its any different.
 
 
 
M

 

[Del91574]

What's remarkable is that this bug opens both ipdatatel and Alarm Relay up to considerable liability should property loss or casualty occurs because of it.

All covered by limited liability clauses. Unless you're able to prove gross negligence, which this wouldn't come under, or an inherent design flaw (possibly). Either way, the damages are typically set out and covered in the contract....and then through the third party contract.

That said, there's a reason to stay away from these sorts of devices.

 

[sorka]

All covered by limited liability clauses. Unless you're able to prove gross negligence, which this wouldn't come under, or an inherent design flaw (possibly). Either way, the damages are typically set out and covered in the contract....and then through the third party contract.

That said, there's a reason to stay away from these sorts of devices.

 
 
....which it would be as they have been notified and in writing and are aware of the bug that will prevent first responder notifications should the customers ISP drop since it won't fallback to cellular. If this was an unknown bug that they hadn't yet had a chance to address or warn customers about, then yes, but now they know about it. They have customers using CBATs for dual path notifications that don't work. If they don't notify their customers who are in this situation, then it is gross negligence and no amount of waiver signing will avoid the legal ramifications.
 
In my case, they're going to monitor my Envisalink 4 over IP and the CBAT only over cellular. It's not an optimal solution for me as the IP Fob app is quite a bit slower when going only over cellular but it's slower by seconds, not minutes or never as is the case when the CBAT is plugged into a router that has no internet. 

 

[sorka]

Hi Sorka,
 
Yes - 10 mins is not acceptable (even for the first outage)...but 10 minutes for EVERY message is awful.
 
I found that mine would switch to CDMA after about 10 minutes and then messages would go out quickly.  So this does sound like a slight improvement.  They shipped me a new device which should arrive early next week as we spoke with IPDataTel and they confirmed this is not the intended behaviour.  I'll let you know if its any different.
 
 
 
M

 
So in the case when a home invasion robber cuts your physical coax in an attempt to disable IP alarm monitoring, I guess they'd succeed then since your CBAT won't switch over for 10 minutes, right?