HAI 3.0 Firmware and PC Access Out

[ano]

ano,

Can you elaborate on the "LONG time to load" problems you are reporting?

First are you connecting TCP or UDP?

When you say "load" are you referring to reading from or writing to the controller?

The 10004 is a standard windows socket error. This is most often associated with communications errors. Can you provide more info about your connection to the Omni. Specifically is the Omni local to your PC, or are you connecting across the Internet? Are you going across a wireless link?

I want to try to narrow down the problem and see if we can find a solution.

O.K. First, I have ver 2.16a FW (I think) so connecting via UDP, via a network locally, but that isn't related to the problem. Sorry I wasn't clear.

The problem I'm having is after I open PC Access 3.0, which opens fast, I go to open my config file. I THINK its the xxxx.pca file This is what takes a long time to open and where I see the network problem at the bottom. I haven't even attempted to connect to the panel at this point. I see the hourglass and eventually Windows reports that the program is "Not Responding" but if I wait longer, it does finally come up. So, just reading the file from disk.

Others have said this only happens the FIRST time, when you open your PC Access 2.x file and it converts to a 3.0 file, but I'm seeing it EVERY time. Interesting enough, I saw this problem with the PC Access 3.0 file the first day it was released, but I downloaded an update the second or third day after, and in THAT version, the problem disappeared. Unfortunately, that version still had the thermostat bug in it. The latest download fixed the thermostat bug, but now I'm back to SLOW config file opening.

Uploads and Downloads to and from the panel work O.K., but in both directions they do seem somewhat slower than under PC Access 2.x Again, is is via a local network connection. Panel and PC are in the same room, connected with a switch, so network connectivity should be pretty fast.

Also, I forgot to mention, the PC is running XP Pro, all latest updates, and its plenty fast. The PC also has Internet access.

 

[HAI_fjh]

OK, I initially typed this message off line while I was testing, so look at the stuff at the end for reference but:

My system Is a 4 year old 3Ghz P4 (not even Core anything) XP Pro system. I use it to give me a perspective on the typical user system. I don't want to develop software that only runs well on a monster machine...

Let me see if I can touch on each point you mentioned.

2.16a should be able to do TCP. 2.16 had TCP but due to a bug in the firmware (the reason for 2.16a) PCA3 will not talk TCP to a 2.16 system.

Upgrading a 2.x file should take no time, and in fact may open quicker than a 3.x file because it is smaller. If there is a difference thought is should be in the milliseconds range for the average PC.

Opening an account file should not connect to the controller at all so I am not sure where the 10004 error is coming from. The only time I see any com errors on an account file open is when I an online with one controller and reopen another file. This kills the existing connection and there is a brief display of the exception when the socket is forcibly closed. This is an expected and handled exception. I have left the diagnostic display there untill we get pats this "birthing" period.

As far as open times, again using my system as a reference, they should be < 2 seconds from a local drive. I did some testing with a MAXed out account file with everything named and 1500 lines of programs. In this case it was still < 4 seconds. Across a network you may see slightly slower times but nothing on the order of 60 seconds.

The thermostat status bug was a typo in the "RequestThermostatStatus" message that only the affected OmniLink1 protocol (UDP/Serial). This has been fixed.

Ok so what's wrong?

Well I think you may have already hit on the problem. Your account file may be corrupt. Try creating a new file reading everything from the controller. Give that a try and let me know what happens.

---------
I did a quick test. I took my Omni Pro II V3.0 and created an account file like this:
- 100 program lines
- 10 named codes each with 2 or 3 voice words
- 5 named areas (with voices)
- 15 named zones (with voices)
- 32 named units (with voices)
- 8 named outputs (with voices)
- 10 named flags (with voices)
- 9 named user settings (with voices)
- 11 named buttons (with voices)
- 5 named thermostats (with voices)
- 21 messages (with voices)
- 9 named audio sources (with voices)
- 8 named audio zones (with voices)
- 1 named access control reader (with voices)

By having some data in each category it forces the controller to read/write each block and basically gives you a MAX time transfer.

Connecting TCP: Read 00:36, Write 01:52
Connecting UDP: Read 00:43, Write 02:03

Remember that read/write times are affected by connection speed/reliability, network traffic, protocol and volume of data. It is common to have some slight variance but unless something dramatic changes the times should be fairly consistent.

 

[ano]

My mistake. I have 2.15a so is UDP

Maybe related is that I DO open the file over my LAN. The xxx.pca file is located on a NAS. I just tried it now and it opened instantly so it appears to be an intermittent problem. I can put the file locally on the PC, and that probably will some it, but do note I keep many many files on this NAS, and have never experienced this problem with any other program opening a LAN file.

You can put it on the backburner for now, but I bet I'm not the only doing this that has the same problem.

 

[HAI_fjh]

A couple of things to consider:

- The network will almost always have a slower transfer rate than a local drive.
- Network performance can vary greatly from moment to moment.
- From a security perspective network files are treated differently. Generally files on your local drive are trusted, but files from the network are not. This can incur additional security scans which will exacerbate the slower transfer rate problem.

Also check for PC Access update frequently over the next couple of weeks. I have been putting up new versions every day with minor bug fixes and enhancements. Despite a 2 month beta program with more than 50 beta testers some bugs still got through.

 

[psharrock]

A couple of things to consider:

- The network will almost always have a slower transfer rate than a local drive.
- Network performance can vary greatly from moment to moment.
- From a security perspective network files are treated differently. Generally files on your local drive are trusted, but files from the network are not. This can incur additional security scans which will exacerbate the slower transfer rate problem.

Also check for PC Access update frequently over the next couple of weeks. I have been putting up new versions every day with minor bug fixes and enhancements. Despite a 2 month beta program with more than 50 beta testers some bugs still got through.

Thanks Fred

I have noticed quite a few new versions since the release last week.
One thing the releases are missing is a release file with the changes in each release, as we have no idea what has been fixed and whether we need to report all the bugs again on release of each version.

I have two outstanding bugs with Support

Paul

 

[HAI_fjh]

We do have a process/mechanism for documenting these bug fixes, but with the new release everyone is very busy and as you noticed I have been spitting out releases so fast that it is just not getting done. I haven't wanted to wait for official documentation. My fault.

Tomorrow I will try to add a release notes file to the installer. It will get the feedback to the people who need it and take some pressure off tech support.

 

[psharrock]

We do have a process/mechanism for documenting these bug fixes, but with the new release everyone is very busy and as you noticed I have been spitting out releases so fast that it is just not getting done. I haven't wanted to wait for official documentation. My fault.

Tomorrow I will try to add a release notes file to the installer. It will get the feedback to the people who need it and take some pressure off tech support.

This will be great

Thanks

Paul

 

[sjht]

So, if you have the dealer version 2.16, you need to send an e-mail to HAI to get the update vs. using the "check for updates" part of the software?

 

[psharrock]

We do have a process/mechanism for documenting these bug fixes, but with the new release everyone is very busy and as you noticed I have been spitting out releases so fast that it is just not getting done. I haven't wanted to wait for official documentation. My fault.

Tomorrow I will try to add a release notes file to the installer. It will get the feedback to the people who need it and take some pressure off tech support.

Thanks for adding the release file, it will be a great help seeing the changes.
I attended the PC Access webinar yesterday, which was informative, and good to know more features are to be added to PC Access shortly to take advantage of some of the other features of the firmware 3.0.

The one I need is to allow comparison of the current temp and the set points of a temperature sensor, as currently you can tell that its out of range but not in which direction. Currently my installer has replicated all the temp sensors as two separate zones, which works but very clunky and not easy to understand from a user persective.

I'm not pushing but any ideas when the ALL CONSOLES BEEP issue will be fixed (No dropdown option for ALL CONSOLES. I raised it directly with support last Friday.

Paul

 

[psharrock]

So, if you have the dealer version 2.16, you need to send an e-mail to HAI to get the update vs. using the "check for updates" part of the software?

No you just need to keep using check for updates option.
In yesterdays Webinar it was suggested you check for updates everytime you load PC Access.

A note for HAI staff, wouldn't it be better to make the software periodically check for updates (eg on load, or every 12-24hrs), which seems to be the way most software is being written these days.

Paul

 

[HAI_fjh]

I memory serves, we added the "check for updates" feature in version 2.9 or perhaps 2.9b. I don't remember but it's been several years. Anyhow if you have an older version that does not have this feature, you need to call tech support. If you have any one of the newer versions that have the "check for updates" feature you should be able to get 3.0 through the web site.

As far as automatically checking for updates, this comes up every so often, but when dealers are polled it seems that the vast majority prefer to have manual control over when PC Access checks for updates. I added the check reminder, and we have already gotten a few negative comments, but only a few. Let's see how things go.

 

[ano]

Just a quick note that the new version of PC Access 3.0 seems to be working good. The download to the panel seems to be much faster now, and even better, I no longer see the 4 or 5 timeouts before a program is downloaded. With PC Access 2.x and even the earlier 3.0, I would get at least 4 to 5 timeouts before it would actually start to download. I am using 2.15a and have Charmed Quark (CQC) polling every second, so that is my guess on the delay, but I ordered the 3.0 chip and I'll switch to the CQC TCP driver, and that should help. (Dealers don't have the 3.0 chip in stock just yet.)

I still do have the "slow file open" problem across the network, but haven't had a chance to see if its fixed when opening it locally.

Now I have to figure out where I put that pesky OmniTouch upgrade cable. I'm guessing I can upgrade the OmniTouch even before the new panel 3.0 FW is installed?

P.S. I also want to say that it's great that HAI is taking a more active role in discussions like this. If you look at the current topics, many are HAI related, and you just didn't see that 6 months ago. I know HAI mainly sells to professional installers and the DIY market is probably pretty small, but I think communicating directly with users can be VERY helpful and definitely helps to create a better product.

 

[sjht]

Just upgraded my Dealer PC Access to Ver 3 (and the firmware for my Omnipro II). Great job HAI. I can actually have multiple commands with one button now! No issues. Upgrade went smoothly. SJ

 

[HAI_fjh]

Update: We did have a few more users report slow load times over the network. We were never able to reproduce the problem in house, or even on my home LAN, but eventually after sending diagnostic programs to some of the affected users we did find what was causing the slow reads.

On a very small percentage of networks, not sure why, but the file IO sub system constantly dumps the cache and rereads the entire file.

Anyhow I will skip the technical details, but I modified the way we read files across the network and it has made a big difference.

Download the latest version and see if it helps.

 

[psharrock]

Update: We did have a few more users report slow load times over the network. We were never able to reproduce the problem in house, or even on my home LAN, but eventually after sending diagnostic programs to some of the affected users we did find what was causing the slow reads.

On a very small percentage of networks, not sure why, but the file IO sub system constantly dumps the cache and rereads the entire file.

Anyhow I will skip the technical details, but I modified the way we read files across the network and it has made a big difference.

Download the latest version and see if it helps.

Thanks Fred

I see you have all been busy releasing new versions every couple of days which is great news for us all.
All the bugs that I have found have been fixed.

I'm just waiting upon a new feature that has been promised at some stage, so I hope its not too long.
The feature I need is to allow a comparison of the current temp to the cool or heat set points of a temp sensor.

Again many thanks for all your hard work

Paul