LV Landscaping outdoor Wiring questions?

[pete_c]

Helping my landscaping company owner with a new endeavor.  (pro bono making suggestions et al).
 
He has been doing the landscaping here now some 10 years.
 
He wants to expand his business to LV lighting and landscaping.  He did run much of my outdoor LV wiring when I did the landscaping here over the last few years.  I also asked him to help me with my sister's LV outdoor lighting just a couple of years ago.  I have shown him the sandbox LED lighting here and he is looking to utilize all LED lighting in his new endeavor.  I have too taught him a bit of how to pull LV cabling outside via PVC tubing etc over the years....and make it look nice....
 
His first "official" combo landscaping and LV lighting job has been to redo most of a home's landscaping.  Its a real mixture of stones, paver block et al....IE: like those new composite paver blocks with LED lighting built in type of stuff....
 
Here in my home I went with limestone flat stones then cut them and layered them from 3-4 stones up to some 6 stones high.  That and new dirt filler and the cutting (plus the LV wiring) took some two weeks or so.  Most difficult piece was having to cut the limestone (heavy flat rocks).  I think I had ordered some 6 flats of this stone a few years back...don't remember anymore but it was delivered by an 18 wheeler with a long trailer (which was a bit difficult because I live in a court of five homes.
 
His new endeavor has been stopped by the local town because they are asking for permits to run the outdoor LV cabling?
 
I have never seen this before.  Its kind of odd because every big box hardware store that I know of sells LV outdoor cabling, transformers and lighting.  I know of no town in the vicinity that will ask for some sort of outdoor LV electrical permit.  Basically he is just burying LV cable while redoing the outside landscaping.
 
Today he asked me to do a site visit.  The work is now at about 30% done and I am guessing it is looking a bit tacky outside of this home (> 6K SF home).
 
I did help him with the original proposal, getting the hardware and pricing of said endeavor.
 
Just found out that they do also want to put in security cams outside (16?)....
 
....this is leading to the remote control home....as I have noticed with my software control of my watering and being particular about my lawn...a HD IP view shows dry spots here and there versus the analog views....for whatever reasons.... soil moisture sensors that worked would be ideal....IE: today almost stopped the landscaper from cutting the lawn as he cut it too short last week ...instead just had him cut the lawn at the highest setting...(always is a standing request during the hottest parts of the summer or just skip cutting the lawn every week...)

 

[drvnbysound]

Realize that every big box hardware store also sells electrical panels, subpanels, breakers, standard electrical wire, receptacles, switches, etc.... that doesn't mean that anyone can install it without the proper licensing.
 
Generally speaking a homeowner can do work on their own as they are responsible for doing so. Hence, the sales of the LV stuff, and the many homeowners who do it.
 
During the construction of my home I worked with the builder who allowed me to pull my own alarm, speaker, A/V, and CCTV wiring. Generally speaking, I believe speaker and A/V wiring are the only ones that don't necessarily require a license. The selling agent caught wind of my alarm wiring and ended up demanding that I have a permit pulled for the alarm. I did. When the inspector came out, he literally asked me why I pulled the permit and stated that as the homeowner that I had no need to do so.
 
Having said that, I am interested in running some LV landscape lighting myself. You mentioned above the use of conduit for pulling the wiring. I am planning to install a transformer inside my garage, which would then have a penetration through the exterior wall to get the wiring outside. I have no issues with this and have done this before. My question is: say I decide to run the cable in conduit until I near the first light... do you use some sort of connector on the end of the conduit to keep water from getting into the conduit and staying there?

 

[JimS]

I used conduit for low voltage in a few places - mainly under concrete walkway and such were it would be difficult to put the wire in and a few longer runs that I wasn't sure what I would need there.  The walkways were put in first and the wiring later.  I didn't use any sort of end sealing.  The wire is rated for direct burial so water is not an issue.  The conduit is there for physical protection (digging to plant things for example) and ease of running wires or more wires later.  If you are worried about water collecting in a low spot you could drill a hole in the bottom for a drain.  Since it's low voltage direct burial cable the conduit isn't required so I don't see how anyone would object to a drain hole.
 
But the poke through the insulation "connectors" used on low end lights are awful.  I cut them off and use sealed wire nuts.  A little more time and money but they don't give out in a few years.
 
Low voltage permits are up to the local jurisdiction.  Seems kind of silly to me...

 

[pete_c]

Understood.
 
I have had issues with doing commercial buildings/endeavors and related LV alarm wiring. 
 
I have some maybe 12 unique originally run for 12VAC LV lighting runs.  Almost each one is similiar and unique.  I have over the years now soldered the lamp wiring to the main higher guage wires testing a variety of outdoor "vampire" clamps; some very cheaply constructed and others with much insulation (worthless though after a period of time). 
 
Recently just that issue came up in almost a heated discussion relating to the commercial vampire clamping I see out there. 
 
I did go inside of the house for my original installation of the toroidal transformers and it was a PITA.  That said a neighbor of mine chose similiar 1000 watt commercial transformers mounting them outside.  Today (maybe some 5-6 years of being outside) the cases are all rusted out.  At the time these were some $300-500 each. 
 
I did replicate the installed BB cable box and telco boxes which were newly installed when the home was built. 
 
I was a bit picky when I went from DSL to using FIOS in FL and wouldn't let the installer just drill into the home anywhere; such that I did part of the installation and guided the installer for the rest of it.  Thinking now he wanted to run his cabling (fiber) into the master bedroom (cuz it was quick and easy?).  I moved it to a "wired" walk in closet redoing some of the electric and using existing RG-6 and Cat5XX cabling adjacent to the d-mark for the telephone, electric and BB cable.  Reflecting back it was mostly related to the little UPS power supply for the ingress of the fiber / phone stuff.
 
I ran the in to out as if it were just HV voltage using plastic outdoor piping and boxes et al.  The longer PVC pipes carrying the LV out goes up and out to plastic boxes then back down to the ground. The adjacent to the house 12 guage wires are not in conduit and just are down some XX inches below the soil and stone landscaping.  There are 3-4 separate LV zones which do the circumference of the house and terminate at the first lamp more than 100 feet from the transformer (maybe 2-300 feet?)
 
Recently (2 weeks ago) had to redo some lighting (maybe 10 lights) at my sister's house run a couple of years ago.  I had used the commercial grade vampire clamps (to speed up the effort?) and for whatever reason they quit working this summer.  It wasn't the halogen lamps utilized but rather the power clamps that had failed.  There I put two toroidal transformers in her 1/2 finished basement.  These were multitap / multifuse / multivoltage 1000 watt transformers.  LV lighting is in the back, side and front of her home.  (I did have my landscapers run all of the LV wiring there too).

 

[az1324]

Wouldn't the reason for a permit be for the digging and not the wiring.  Isn't there some type of minimum depth that applies?  Sounds like someone with connections didn't like the aesthetics of the project and found a way to get the homeowner's attention.

 

[drvnbysound]

I've never heard of a required permit to dig... but I do know that you need to call 811 before you dig

 

[pete_c]

Wouldn't the reason for a permit be for the digging and not the wiring.

 
Nope.  My landscaper showed me pictures of the work so far and it looks like a total redo of the landscaping. Nothing out of the ordinary.   I am going to do a visit there this week some time.  He has been doing their landscaping now for a few years and has redone parts of it over the last few years.

 

[tmbrown97]

I always thought California had some of the most strict policies - and for a project like that, if the total cost invoiced is over $500 (pats and labor) then a permit would be required - but this one could fall under landscaper or LV or electrical - any of the 3 would let you slide... and here in a state where you can't replace a light switch without a permit, I am almost positive you wouldn't need one for landscape lighting... and if you did, most contractors still wouldn't bother.
 
For the penetration from the house, what the builder of this house did for my sprinklers specifically was take PVC from the side of the house into the ground - open into the ground, and from there it just goes a bit under the dirt.  When I had the yard landscaped, we put in LV conduit from garage to main electrical area, and from there over to the proposed future BBQ area - next to the electrical conduit.
 
My LV lighting is done with the gel-filled waterproof wire nuts - going to a transformer that's located outside on the back of the seat wall by my fire pit - because of its location it gets pretty wet - been there a couple years with no issues; inside where a timer would normally go, I have a UPB lamp module for simple control and the switch that controls my rear patio lights can be double-tapped to control the landscape lighting.

 

[pete_c]

Yup; here in our little subdivision there are some rules and guidelines set forth by the HOA (which I was part of a few years ago for a few years).
 
That said I helped some with the bid / contract for the work at some 20k or so. 
 
Mostly a redo of the outside landscaping that surrounds the home.  (with the new LV stuff going into place).
 
In our little 100 home subdivision we do have self ruling by-laws and convenants which superseed the local town rules a bit.  IE: no above ground pools are allowed type stuff, fences (none are really allowed unless you have an inground pool ; then there are strick guidelines for contruction along with approval by the board). 
 
Being on the other side of the HOA in FL; homeowner; I needed to petition and get a quorum to tear down the old house and build a new house in its spot.  It became somewhat heated when then house was already torn down and the board recinded the build after initially approving it for almost a year. 
 
The solution was simple and succinct but a PITA.

 

[drvnbysound]

Fortunately, for things such as these... I live in a smaller subdivision with no HOA

 

[Del91574]

A lot depends on the AHJ/municipality regarding permits, but digging requires a CBYD/811 tag, otherwise any damages/disruptions caused by hitting a utility are 100% your fault and it's never going to be covered by any insurance. Hell, we've had slabs Xrayed and given a clean bill and still went through a 4" with 500's in it...the core makes a good paperweight
 
In the case of any contractor, the large item the AHJ's are going to have an issue with is the installation/connections of electrical wiring, though it may be LV, since that is typically a licensed trade not within the scope of a landscaper. A HOA can't negate or lessen any codes, nor sign off on any nonconforming project....that would be a huge liability for them. A HO is a different entity compared to a contractor/business, as was stated. In my state, the landscaping wouldn't need a permit, but the wiring/conduit would require an electrical. Excavation would be covered by the building dept, CBYD/811 and inland wetlands.
 
While LV *technically* can be direct buried directly below the surface, it is classified to be put 18" down when considering the schedules for conduit burial (special locations notwithstanding.
 
And while it was alluded to,just because a product is available in an OTC situation doesn't mean that it can be installed by any person..... while an extreme hypotheticalI can rent a semi, but I'm not licensed to drive it legally, even though I may be capable of doing such.

 

[Neurorad]

The Architectural and Landscape Lighting subforum at Lawnsite.com is a good resource.

http://www.lawnsite.com/forumdisplay.php?s=013bcb9cf1b92fa1042514b4dd3e75b4&f=117

 

[pete_c]

Thanks guys.  I have no idea right now about what is going on and will be visiting this week.  This is all related to helping my landscaper expand his business.  He has now been doing landscaping redo's now for over 10 years and is venturing into the LV illumination world. 
 
The same folks also requested external wiring for CCTV (extensive outdoor - now maybe 12 cams).  Guessing here that he showed them what I have done with this CCTV stuff and they want the same; hence me helping him with his initial proposal and subsequent while "while we are doing this" doing "that" stuff.  Maybe an intro here to automation? 

 

[JimS]

It really depends on the AHJ and local rules.  Sometimes it get really screwy.  Case in point - Here they seem to be overly concerned that the roofers are licensed and even have to be listed on the building permit application.  It seems to be one of their primary concerns.  But they are very lax on who can do electrical work, even as a contractor.  One landscaper I met said he does both because the landscaping is seasonal. 

 

[pete_c]

Did a site visit and a visit to the local village hall. ....in the late 90's was involved in the building of a new bank and out building in town....nice little town....never had any issues with the infrastructure stuff....
 
It was only about getting a permit for the extensive landscaping work and not anything really out of the ordinary. (other than maybe a language/communications thing).