Need help with extended range temp/humidity sensor

[GeorgieC]

Hi, I'm a new member here. My google searches always bring me to this forum! I have the OMNI LT with an expansion board, have some modules from OnQ, HAI, Honeywell, and others and have the system monitored with Alarm Relay.

I just recently replaced an outdoor temp sensor with a temp/humidity sensor 31A00-8 that I had bought a couple years ago. The humidity works but the temperature is way off. I have this installed on the expansion board, and I found some documentation that seems to say this module won't work on an expansion board? I have another temp/humidity sensor on the explansion board that works fine but it's the older model 31A00-2. Is there a reason this one won't work on the explansion board? If so, can I switch it with a motion detector on the main board, will the motion detector work okay on the expansion board? Any help appreciated! I only know enough to do the bare basics.

 

[GeorgieC]

I found a post from someone with the same problem but no resolution. I dug into to my installer's manual and found that the zone should be configured as 85 for extended outdoor temperature. Right now it is set as 81, outdoor temperature. It will let me go up to 83, temp alarm, but not 85. Possibly because elsewhere duress is set to 85? Help!

 

[dwalt]

Hi GeorgieC,
I suspect your OmniLT firmware doesn't know about the extended range temperature sensor.
What firmware version is your OmniLT? You must be on at least version 2.8 for the system to work with
the extended range sensor. Don't worry about the expansion module information. The installation instructions are referring to the 17A00 which is only used on the OmniPro II. You can try to read the firmware version off the eprom label but its probably covered up by your expansion board.
Another way to check the version, go to installer setup, then 6-Misc, then scroll down to software version. If the firmware is old enough, the software version maybe be under a different menu. Do you know when you purchased your system? Version 2.8 came out in 2005.
Don

 

[GeorgieC]

Hi GeorgieC,
I suspect your OmniLT firmware doesn't know about the extended range temperature sensor.
What firmware version is your OmniLT? You must be on at least version 2.8 for the system to work with
the extended range sensor. Don't worry about the expansion module information. The installation instructions are referring to the 17A00 which is only used on the OmniPro II. You can try to read the firmware version off the eprom label but its probably covered up by your expansion board.
Another way to check the version, go to installer setup, then 6-Misc, then scroll down to software version. If the firmware is old enough, the software version maybe be under a different menu. Do you know when you purchased your system? Version 2.8 came out in 2005.
Don

Thanks, Don. You are right, my model says "HMS 800, S/W version 2.5C". Is there any way to upgrade the software version or am I just out of luck on using this module? I have an ancient laptop I use to connect to pc access, it's the only one with the serial port.

I don't really need the temp/humidistat to be extended range but at the time I bought it, it was the only temp/humid I could find, these things have become so hard to find now.

PS My board is actually an OnQ.

 

[dwalt]

The answer is never simple..... Having the OnQ version of the board makes it more challenging. There are a few differences between OnQ and HAI
versions. I don't know what the exact differences are. It is going to be very difficult to find firmware upgrades for the OnQ version. The HAI upgrades are a bit easier. However once you install the HAI version you lose the OnQ specific features. The software you have only speaks to OnQ versions of the board. The HAI version of PC Access is now free. Pete_C has posted a download site for it. You can get around the serial port requirement by buying a USB to RS232 adapter. They are fairly cheap on ebay. You may want to ask on this board if someone would trade you the older version temp sensor. You would get a sensor that would work with your current hardware and they would get an upgrade to an extended range sensor.
Did you keep the broken sensor? What problem did it have? If no one else can help you, I can root through my old stuff and maybe trade you one.
Don

 

[GeorgieC]

Yes, I would be glad to trade the extended range sensor for a working model of the normal range temp/humidity sensor. There is nothing wrong with the old sensor I took out, it was temp only and I wanted to get humidity as well.

I'm a little leery of upgrading to the HAI software since I'm not that proficient at this and don't know what all I would be getting myself into!

 

[dwalt]

Yes, I would be glad to trade the extended range sensor for a working model of the normal range temp/humidity sensor. There is nothing wrong with the old sensor I took out, it was temp only and I wanted to get humidity as well.

I'm a little leery of upgrading to the HAI software since I'm not that proficient at this and don't know what all I would be getting myself into!

Lets see if other members have one they can trade you. I may have a standard range temp sensor but fairly sure I don't have any standard range temp/humidity sensors.
Don

 

[GeorgieC]

One question, it seems like I've seen something that in order to upgrade this old board to a newer version you actually have to make some hardware changes on the board? Or am I misunderstanding that?
Thanks so much for your help!

 

[dwalt]

No hardware changes to the board. I have upgraded a number of OnQ boards to HAI. Its just a difference in the firmware chip.
Don

 

[GeorgieC]

Can you still get an upgrade chip for this old model?
The chip label reads:
OnQ
2004
HAI
100368-01
2.5C

What kind of features do you lose that are OnQ only? I don't use the lighting controls or the home automation, just various sensors and door alarms/motion sensors and smoke detectors (which is another issue I have, that they will alarm but do not call out to Alarm Relay).

 

[dwalt]

I don't know anywhere to get OnQ upgrade chips. I don't know where the differences between HAI and OnQ flavors are documented.
Moving to an HAI chip will be a lot of work. It will require the physical eprom change, then entering all all your configuration either manually or by using HAI PC Access instead of the OnQ software. What zone type do you have your smokes configured as? what message is on the keypad when the smokes go off? You may want to look thru the HAI OmniLT manual to see how it compares to your OnQ manual. I'm attaching the OmniLT 2.14 user manual. Its the closest I have to 2.8. It may be easier to address whatever current problems you have, like the smokes.

 

[GeorgieC]

Well, I think the settings would be pretty easy to replicate. The manual looks the same as far as I can tell. My keypad looks identical except for the branding is OnQ. Is the HAI chip that would be compatible with my board available anywhere?

I have 2 smoke alarms, 2-wire System Sensors. A red cable's black wire is attached to zone 8 on the main board and its red wire is attached to output 2 which is switched. This red cable goes to the smoke alarm in the bedroom. Then a second red cable runs from that smoke alarm to the second one in the main living area. There is an EOL resistor on the second smoke alarm. The zone type is set to 32.

Setting the fire alarm off by pressing the test button on the smoke detector or by shorting out the main board sets off the sounder and the keypad displays "Fire Alm! Smoke Alarm Tripped!" But nothing is transmitted to AlarmRelay. After one minute, it times out then displays "Comm had trble" mssg.

Setting the alarm by pressing the keypad buttons 4 + 6 sets off the sounder and displays the mssg "Fire Alm! Fire Emerg Tripped!" on the screen. It does transmit to AlarmRelay as "Alarm" with zone #000 (not as fire or smoke alarm and not as zone 8). After 1 minute, it switches directly to "System Ok."

The tech at Alarm Relay went over all the settings with me over the phone and confirmed they were correct. He thought there might be a bad resistor on the 2nd smoke alarm or it was in the wrong position, so we did some experiments and replaced the resistor, but it made no difference. I think we tried setting a different zone type too.

His final conclusion is that there may be a module on my On-Q panel that is not functioning properly. Something that the signal runs through between the activation of the alarm and the communicator. I have no idea what that would be or how to check, so I ended up stuck with smoke alarms that will alert me if I'm home but won't call in an alarm to Alarm Relay.

 

[dwalt]

Thanks for the detailed reply. It sounds like Alarm Relay worked with you on this problem which is good to hear.
The fact that you get "Fire Alm! Smoke Alarm Tripped!" means the fire detect circuitry is working. The "Comm had trble" message is the clue. That normally means the OmniLT tried to call the monitoring company and they did not answer or they did not recognize the code the OmniLT sent. It also could mean "not enough power left to dial the phone number". Do your smoke detectors have built in sounders? If yes the model number would be helpful. HAI did not recommend using 2 wire smokes with sounders due to them drawing more current than the LT could supply. Per the OmniLT install manual you are limited to 500mA total for all "Devices: AUX 12 VDC, CONSOLE, and OUTPUTS 1 and 2". So, we need to total up the current draw of your system. Each console is 100mA, Smokes without sounders are 120mA in alarm, 2 temp sensors at 15mA each, expansion module with no devices attached 35mA, etc. These 6 alone get you to 405mA. If you have a wireless receiver that uses current as well. I made this mistake once and learned to add a separate power supply for devices.
So please add up your motion detectors, consoles and other powered devices and give me a total. Adding an additional power supply is fairly easy.
You need three parts Elk-1640 and Elk-P624 and Elk-1280 battery.

If its a power issue, that explains why when you send the Fire Emergency (4+6) it works but when the Smoke detectors go off it doesn't....

I have an old OmniLT 2.8 chip if you still want to go ahead with this project. I just read another OnQ to HAI doc and it says you need at least 2.15 so I'll take another look.

OnQ to HAI doc attached. Look at the middle of page 1 where it discusses temp sensors.
Don

 

[pete_c]

Can you read the panel with PCA serially or via IP? It should work. If you can read the panel then download the configuration.

The ONQ panel worked with old Homeseer serial connection with same commands as the OmniPro panel.

This Homeseer 2 plugin only was a console. I am still using it today for my OmniPro 2 panel.

The older panels from the 1990's only had serial connectivity and no Ethernet connectivity. All of the console software was written for serial connectivity at the time. There are some Homeseer users still using these old panels and they work fine with the old serial plugin for Homeseer 2.

The current version of Leviton PC Access should connect to the panel via a serial port just fine. I do not think you need a password to get to the panel serially. That said the default installer password is "1111" unless it has been changed.

You will need an RJ11-12 to RS-232 cable for this connection. I made all of mine. You can purchase one here.

HAI21A05-2

Many many years ago purchased 2 OnQ panels that had been removed by an Alarm installer. He said they functioned fine. I could get to them with a serial connection at the time using PCA. Only the Ethernet ports on both panels were not functioning so I sent the panels back to the seller.

I am running the old serial plugin in Windows 2003 Virtual box on Ubuntu Linux. (geez running 3 VBs here on same box).
Windows 2003 standard was very much like XP without the fluff. These builds are 10Gb each today. The issue with the serial plugin was polling in the early 2000's. This is similar to running OmniProTouch today.

Restarted the software and see: Note the software is very old and worked well with the old firmware V2.XX but not today. It does see my temperature and temperature / humidity sensors just fine. None are extended sensors and very old today.

9/12/2022 9:01:37 AM - HAI System - HAI Plug-In Version 2.1.2746.29695
9/12/2022 9:01:37 AM - HAI System - About to initialize HAI System on COM6
9/12/2022 9:01:38 AM - HAI System - Panel Model: 16 (HAI Omni Pro II) with Panel Software Version: 4.0 Rev: C
9/12/2022 9:01:39 AM - HAI System - Security code is number 1, which has a level of Master
9/12/2022 9:01:39 AM - Plug-In - Finished initializing plug-in HAI_System

 

[dwalt]

Pete,
OP says he has an OnQ HMS 800 / OmniLT so no ip. He does have the OnQ version of PC access. Yes if he will export the config file, I could look at it..
Don