New Home Automation Hardware

[markthomas]

I was informed by several sources, who have much more knowledge about the UPB pricing structure than I do, that there still was a minimum pricing set, but I would love to be wrong on this one, since that would mean that the hardware might become much cheaper in the near future.

I just talked to one of the manufacturers of UPB equipment, and no, there is no pricing restriction at all. All the manufacturers have to pay a very small royalty to PCS, but it is not enough to affect the pricing.

 

[electron]

Well that's great news then, last time I talked to someone involved with UPB, was about a year ago, when there were no other manufactures officially selling UPB hardware. Thanks for checking.

 

[electron]

hi DaveRye, welcome to CocoonTech!

These new technologies haven't yet been around long enough to even know what problems they have. They won't be better than X10, they'll just be different. What none of the writers seem to know is that X10 has been around for 27 years. I.E., shipping products for 27 years! X10 founded the Home Automation Industry, shipping its first products to RadioShack in 1978.

27 years, and the basic issues which existed from the beginning are still there (speed, noise issues, etc.). Granted, if they would make big changes which would address these issues, it probably wouldn't be called X10 anymore. No one denies that X10 brought home automation down to an affordable level, but that doesn't mean that there isn't any room for 1 or more successors. It's called 'progress', and it happens everywhere. I am pretty sure you didn't use a C64 with a 1200bps modem to make that post, but yet, both the C64 and those 'slow' modems changed the world.

The consumer doesn't care how "fast" a signal gets to a module, the consumer doesn't care what protocol is used, and X10 has proof (by its lack of sales of its two-way products compared to its huge installed base of its one-way products) that the consumer doesn't care about two-way. The American consumer only cares about three things: price, price, and price

Unfortunately, that statement is rather inaccurate. We have over 700 consumers alone on this forum thinking that quality and speed ARE important. I guess you never had a person visit your house, and wonder why it can take up to 2-3 seconds for a light to turn on using your X10 motion sensor. If the consumer wasn't interested in anything but price, then there would be no such thing as high end Smarthome, Lightolier and Leviton switches. People who are serious about home automation do not install the cheap 1-way X10 switches. If you don't believe me, search the newsgroups, forums, and talk to some of the biggest HA hardware dealers around.

These emerging technologies come and go. Does anyone remember CEBus? It was the first one that was going to "kill X10." 27 years on, X10 is still alive and kicking!

The beauty of these 'emerging technologies' is that they can coexist with X10. Back in the days of CEbus, the number of people interested in home automation was much lower. Now they have dedicated TV shows about home automation, tons of software, and major companies such as Microsoft are spending tons of money on home automation as well. TWICE just did a survey, showing that 7.2% of internet connected homes already have home automation hardware, and more than half of online households are interested in getting involved as well.


Of course, this is all "IMO", and based on my own experience/feedback :angry:

 

[rocco]

27 years on, X10 is still alive and kicking!

Some of that kicking could be it's death-throes . . .

I have used X10 for 25 of those 27 years (most of my old BSR modules are still working). One thing I have noticed is the reduction in X10 reliability over the past ten years. It's not anything different with X10; It's what has happened to the powerline. It's much more noise-polluted than it once was.

Switching power supplies, soft-start and power-conscious motor controls, microwave ovens and sophisticated consumer electronics didn't exist when X10 was born. In those days, I never even heard of a noise filter. And a capacitor was the only phase-coupler I needed.

Those days are fading, and X10 will die a natural death, at a ripe old age. Maybe we should bury it next to the 8-track players.

 

[Dean Roddey]

The statement that X-10's lack of sales in two-way proves two way doesn't matter is pretty funny. The fact that two-way with X-10 is all but useless might have something to do with it, I think. It's so dog slow to do two way with X-10 that it's pretty much a waste of time to try to do anything other than a simple scheme where the user presses a button to manually retrieve the state of a module.

The more likely story is that automation itself doesn't mean anything to most people in general, but to those whom it does mean sometime, two way is important, and it's a key to creating robust automation. You cannot create a smart automation system if that automation system is deaf, dumb, and blind.

Anyway, if my choices are X-10 or nothing, I'd take nothing. So I guess I have to take my chances on unproven technologies like Z-Wave, which has been working perfectly fine for me.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I think the reason nobody over took X-10 all these years is because no serious competitor wanted to. Maybe it didn't represent enough business at the time?!?!

I beileve the market for home automation now has increased. Look at all the new products out. Look at the Elk M1 Gold and its development over the last year alone.

X-10 can be a reliable system, but it is painfull. It took me a while to get a good phase coupler then purchase a signal tester, then go all through the house, determine all the signal sucks, then purchase and install filters. (All those signal sucking devices are the results of some current technology products).

So now that large companies see a market, they are willing to throw some R&D money at it, thus resulting in these exciting new products.

 

[1audio]

This has all been very interesting. Its clear that there are strong opinions. To bring this around to some direction for me, what are the features of modules (switches etc.) that would make one more desirable than another? X-10 has simple switches for module ID. The newer stuff usually doesn't, requiring a more interactive setup (Z Wave needs typically several visits to the modules to set up a scene) or some other systems can link with no interaction. Is this much of an issue for most users?

And what kinds of things do people do with them? X-10 has a reputation for being very unreliable. In some applications it may not be a problem. Others it is totally unacceptible (life safety for example). But if most users aren't expecting much it may not be an issue. Is reliability important for most users? And what constitutes reliability? 99.9% communication or module mean time to failure (breaking) of 3 years or more?

I'm trying not to overbuild this new system despite the temptation to put an industrial class product together, given the impact on cost. And how much will people pay for components of their dream system?

I really appreciate the responses and advice from all who have contributed.

 

[SmarthomeJohn]

....X10 has been around for 27 years. I.E., shipping products for 27 years!

Mr. Rye is correct about the history of X10, but his company (X10) has done little in the two last decades to improve upon the technology or the products. Coming out with one or two X10-based products per decade is pretty poor. (I am discounting all the camera crap they sell.)

Next time you have an X10 module break, look inside and notice how it is still made with 1970's technology and parts. X10 is one of the best cash cows ever to come along with Dave and George are milking it for all it's worth.

 

[kwilcox]

@1audio

Unfortunately there's not much out there today that meets your requirements: OTC sales that "just work". You are describing a peer to peer based P&P automation solution with ultra-high reliability, even (especially) in a large automation implementation.

X10 just doesn't have the reliability to "just work" without extensive debugging and troubleshooting to place boosters and filters at key locations. Perhaps in a small installation it would meet your requirements, but you want repeat sales which means providing the incentive and capability for a large installation. X10's large installation reliability issues would quickly kill the product line as word-of-mouth dissatisfaction spreads

UPB has the reliability and peer-to-peer capability, but the protocol is complex and the current configuration program "UPStart" requires some advanced knowledge of UPB's capabilities, not to mention a computer with a PIM attached to it. I don't consider price a problem here because it seems that your target audience is the upper-tier homeowner and SAI switches could be offered in the $50-55 reigon that would have capabilities exceeding the best X10 switches out there. Because of this, I think that UPB could meet your needs, but only if a more basic configuration and setup solution was developed as part of a reasonably priced, dedicated hardware device along the lines of that X10 setup device we all use: the X10 Maxi Controller. Your retail outlet could then sell this as part of the store's automation "starter pack" which would also include a few lamp modules, appliance modules and a plug-in controller. Then they could stock these and other wire-in switches and recepticles for add-on sales. You could also sell "contractor packs" which would include 10 or more switches at a 10-15% discount for those who wanted to include the switches as part of an overall new-home package. Don't forget to sell the setup device seperately too so that real contractors can do basic network configuration as part of the build-out process.

 

[1audio]

Kwilcox:
Thanks for your input. The setup requirements are very important in the retail market, those customers are not necessarily very interested in a software based setup program. This is one of the reasons we have been looking at many options. The Lonworks solution is attractive and can do all you mentioned, but may be more expensive.
Z Wave is a controller based solution and must be setup to do anything. The Modules are all dumb. Is this a roadblock? The controllers being shipped now (like the Intermatic HA07) can do some things like timer based actions. They don't have a simple system to get a sensor to cause an action, that all requires a computer today.
Your response didn't mention Insteon or ZigBee. Is it because they are both too new?

 

[1audio]

Smarthome John:
I look at X-10 differently. its a remarkable testament to the skills of engineers of an earlier age making a durable system cheaply using simple parts. I would liken it to NTSC, also amazing in its ability to survive and work. However we are running into absolute limitations on both and thats why there are new alternatives taking off. Unfortunately the new alternatives are much more complex. Just compare the requirements of an NTSC and an ATSC tuner and its obvious progress comes at a price.
But the problems of X-10 are why we are looking at the other alternatives.

 

[Rupp]

Ah the Holy Grail of device automation. Will we ever see it? So many of you talk about X10 being unreliable. Some of the reasons, NOT all but some, are caused by the off the shelf paradigm. There are so many users that do not know how to install something as simple as X10 and how to use it with all that House and Unit codes. How do you expect the average Joe to get interested in let alone figure out how to program a SwitchLinc. It seems to me your dealing with apples and oranges. Do you want an off the shelf easy to use and semi-reliable system or an a rock solid difficult to install but works once installed system. You must identify you target audience. The choices are simple today. You either tinker with what is available and affordable or you spend a load for an expensive reliable system. The costs of all the newer technology will not help expand HA at all. If anything it will porhibit newer users. I used to tell guys at work about this nice cheap $39 software package and a few $6-$8 modules to make sure the coffee pot was shut off in case I forget. Now it slowly migrating to $50-$70 per switch and $200 software packages, $60 add on voices, $200 front end software packages, etc. It's going to be hard to bring on new users/tinkers at these prices in my opinion. So in conclusion I believe there is and will always be a hugh market for X10 err cheap plugin modules and an entry level software package. You bring them to the table and they will eat.

 

[rocco]

You either tinker with what is available and affordable or you spend a load for an expensive reliable system.

Yes, this is very true. But it doesn't have to be that way. It may not be that way for long.

I think you will see with Home Automation what you saw with computers, CD players, digital cameras, etc; Once they reach critical mass, the price plummets. After all, firmware is almost free, once it exists. Getting it to exist, and exist in the form that a majority of consumers will accept, is the expensive part.

But I don't see any of the existing technologies reaching critical mass, as the X10 technology did, with the possible exception of Insteon and ZigBee. UPB and ZWave may work for us, but (IMHO) won't work for the average Josephine.

 

[kwilcox]

@1audio:
I have no experience with Insteon or Zigbee, so I'm not really qualified to comment on those technologies. UPB could be plug & play with a simplified setup controller. Plug and play is what you're looking for ideally. I'm envisioning something like a device having a "setup network" button that would configure switches and define a unique network automatically. Adding additional devices and pressing setup would add the new devices. There could also be a "create scene" button where the device would listen as you adjusted the appropriate switches then set up links accordingly. Adding a controller would give you schedule based enhancements and provide a good add-on path. Scene creation is a difficult chore with Switchlinc as well as with UPB, but that is one of the most used capabilities of a peer-to-peer arrangement. UPB has no motion detection hardware either so automatic light activation isn't a native capability (yet) and would require a controller that can bridge some other technology.

 

[upstatemike]

OK, how about ignoring existing technologies for a moment and just describe what might be an ideal system for a typical Home Depot customer. (Not necessarily what is ideal for this audience). If I am a typical HA novice I want to pay $35-$45 per switch for a super easy system with enough of a “wow†factor to catch my interest in the first place. I suggest the following features:

1. All devices have hard coded addresses like the MAC address on a network card. (Let’s call it a unique ID or “UID†number) As an HA I don’t want to know anything about setting addresses.

2. Switches use a scene approach so they do not depend on a controller for automation features. I can do cool stuff just by buying a couple of switches. Memory is cheap so each switch can remember a couple of hundred scenes.

3. Switches look really cool. I picture the current standard “true rocker†form factor but the paddle is split vertically down the middle. Main switch is the left half of the paddle and the right quarter of the paddle is the secondary switch. The remaining quarter between the paddles is a translucent LED bar. Bottom LED is blue and acts as a night light but dim enough not to bother a sleeper. The rest of the LED bar is tri-color red/green/yellow LED’s with yellow being the color presented during normal operation.

4. The Large left paddle essentially transmits scene triggers. Pushing the top of the paddle transmits the switches “UID†and “Scene Aâ€. Pushing the bottom of the paddle transmits the switches “UID†and “Scene Bâ€. Switches ship with the first two memory locations containing scenes that turn the switch ON when scene A is sent and OFF when scene B is sent. This makes the big paddle work like a normal switch initially so the buyer doesn’t get confused.

5. The small right paddle is for local control and works like all industry standard switches. (Top ON, bottom OFF, hold for dim and bright.) Homeowner probably won’t use this paddle much except for setup but it is always there to prevent frustration if the big paddle isn’t working as expected.

6. There is also a small 4-position slide switch for normal/set/program/default.

7. To configure a scene, move the slide switch of the switch you want to have trigger the scene to “setâ€. The switch will ignore all signals it receives while in this mode and the LED bar will change from yellow to green. Go to all of the switches you want to include in the scene and move the slide switch to “programâ€. The LED bar will turn red and the switch will ignore all signals except “scene set signalsâ€. Use the small (local) paddle to adjust the switch the way you want it for that scene (ON, OFF, DIMMED). After all the switches you want included in the scene are adjusted, go back to the switch that is going to trigger the scene and press either the top or bottom of the large paddle. This will send a special signal that includes the “UID†of the switch and “Scene A or B†and a special “SET†code. All of the member switches will see the special “SET†code and will store the transmitted “UIDâ€, “Scene A or Bâ€, and the current switch state (ON, OFF, DIM) in one of its many memory locations. If the “UID†Scene A or Scene B†combination already exists in a memory location it will be overwritten with the new switch setting.

8. Returning all slide switches to “run†completes the process prevents accidental scene programming. The “default†position is available to restore the factory default setup if things go wrong.

9. Controllers work like switches except they have multiple addresses (one for each pair of ON/OFF buttons). A tabletop controller might have 8 pairs of ON/OFF buttons plus a 2-position run/set switch.

10. Three available switch models: 1000W dimmer, quiet relay, and transmit only. (Small paddle on transmit only switch acts as slave when wired to traveler wires in 3-way and 4-way configurations)

11. None of the switches require a neutral and can directly replace any existing switch. (Transmit only may need a neutral if not used with traveler wires in a 3-way or 4-way setup).

And that is it. No controllers. No addresses. No practical limit to the number of switches you can add to the system. (Equal to the total number of memory locations each switch has for scenes… should be several hundred). You will need to transmit with a rock solid technology similar to UPB but a typical Home Depot customer doesn’t want to know the details of how you do it, just as long as it works.