New Home Automation Hardware

[Dean Roddey]

I have a Squeezebox in my media room and it is no problem at all. I can dim or turn off the display right from my remote but I also have the option to run it at full brightness so I can read it without leaving my seat.

Of course the optimum scenario is that no device panels need to be visible at all and that the control system provides all the interface you need. Put the devices in a closet and completely seal off all that light pollution.

 

[upstatemike]

OK. You have convinced me to get over my "computer as controller" phobia and consider a PC-centric solution for a moment. Assuming UPB turns out to be an acceptable answer for lighting, help me understand the rest of the picture. Is my PC controller just one PC or a PC network? Assuming I don't want to deal with stand alone controllers at all now (so no Elk M1 or Ocelot) what hardware am I using for digital inputs and relay outputs?

I am picturing a design where I have a Cat-5 bus connecting 4 or 5 wiring closets around the house. 2 pair in the Cat-5 are for a security bus such as Caddx that must operate even when the HA system is down. The other 2 pair could be either RS-485 serial or Ethernet and would link the HA I/O devices together. Would I be talking about Global Cache type hardware for I/O, or is there something else that provides I/O, sits on a serial or Ethernet line and talks directly to the HA computer?

(Or am I on the wrong track)

 

[1audio]

Let me touch on two things about a PC controller. First there has been a lot of push back over having a PC control ones house. ("My house crashed. I need to reboot to turn on the light.") Its not a positive with general consumers. This of course can be hid. But there still is a single point of failure with a controller based system.

Large buildings and other large control systems use distributed control to avoid these problems. Done right there is less load on the network as well. And less latency.

If you go to twisted pair (Cat % etc.) the capability opens up a lot. And the installation is no longer plug and play. For most people is call the installer and Pay.

Lighting in those applications usually isn't closely monitored. Not every command to turn on a light needs to be confirmed, unless you are using an unreliable network. However a control for an elevator or a crane is for self evident reasons.

 

[kwilcox]

hmmm... maybe something that uses WiFi. That's pretty much ubiquitous to upper-tier housing these days. A little known WiFi feature is it's ability to quickly create peer networks without the need for an AP.

However, one must also concede that adding highly reliable wireless capabilities to the HA net devices will certainly drive the per-device price up. We're off in the ultimate HA zone I'm afraid.... not something you'd tend to sell at Home Depot. I'm also not convinced that the "poll each device often" methodology to maintain a controller state table is necessary. I've got some 40 odd switches in my setup and can't remember more than a handful of state differences that quickly corrected themselves once the load was actually toggled. I'm also not convinced that scene control needs a central controller either. Having autonomous scene capabilities built within the memory of each device makes sense as we now have a grid network so to speak with no single point of failure. Scene programming isn't difficult if you have the right capabilities built into a dedicated programmer. Heck, we want those people who buy their HA system from Home Depot to be able to change programming quickly and easily. This can be done regardless of whether or not the system is centrally controlled or not. Remember, a central controller based system will require the homeowner to invest significantly in the controller first rather than get slowly hooked by buying switches here and there and building a large HA system over time.

 

[Dean Roddey]

There are a number of options on I/O hardware. For those devices close to the controller, just put in a PCI-based multi-port card. It's inexpensive and the most robust way to do it. You can run cat-5 serial cables a pretty good ways without problems.

When you need to go beyond that length, then you can get ethernet-to-whatever converters of various types, but they tend to be a bit pricey because there's just not enough of a market for them to drive the price down. USB based ones are cheaper, but you can generally just run a cat5 serial cable further than you can run a USB cable.

The Global Cache's serial ports are fairly useless because they are so limited in terms of settings. They do n-8-1 and that's it, with a fairly limited range of baud rates. That really bugs me about the GC-100 since if they would take care of this issue, they'd have a killer device. It's already a nice device and our customers use them (and I use one) but just for the IR/contact closures, not the serial ports. Plenty of devices use odd or even parity or require the use of some of the control lines or have faster baud rates than the GC-100 ports can handle .

These folks have both multi-port cards, and IP and USB based multi-port boxes:
http://www.comtrol.com/
http://www.quatech.com/

These folks have good USB based multi-port boxes. I used one of theirs in my home theater:
http://www.ionetworks.com/


In most modestly sized homes, you could probably do a 'home run' type of scenario with multiple cat-5 serial runs from each room to the central closet to be used for various things, serial control among them, and just use on-board PCI-based serial ports in the controller (placed near the central cable panel) for serial devices. At least that's one option to look at.

CQC is network distributed, so you can certainly distribute control around if you want. You can have a separate machine in the home theater for that control if you want, and have a separate one in the central location for overall home control. If you choose to use CQC in this way, they will be completely aware of each other and you can control anything from either of them, have some devices being tied into one machine and some into others and so forth. And you can install the client services on your daily use machines for just client side access to the system (i.e. not actually controlling anything, just provding graphical interface access to the automation system, so there is no danger to the HA system going down if these systems stop working or are turned off.)

If you want a wall mounted touch screen computer, there are products like this:
http://www.nobu-usa.com/Product/12TouchPanel.htm
And it can be the overall home controller as well if you want, via external ports.

Or (less expensively) you can just mount a standard touch screen on the wall and use a KVM extender to run the touch-screen/video via a single cat5 back to the control computer in the closet.

We are also now testing out the support for devices such as these for portable interfaces for CQC (in addition to the obvious ones like PocketPCs and SmartPhones):
http://www.kubecorp.com/data/Pdf/RV10TS.pdf
http://www.tatungwebpad.com/htm/product_content.htm


Anyway, it's a big subject, and unless you want to pay someone to put it together for you, it can be a big of a job to explore all the issues. There's a lot of info about the subject in general on the CQC web site, so you might want to read through some of that. In the Documentation section.

 

[Dean Roddey]

We're off in the ultimate HA zone I'm afraid.... not something you'd tend to sell at Home Depot. I'm also not convinced that the "poll each device often" methodology to maintain a controller state table is necessary. I've got some 40 odd switches in my setup and can't remember more than a handful of state differences that quickly corrected themselves once the load was actually toggled.

If you are thinking about is lights, then maybe so. But in a serious automation system, it's the HVAC and sprinklers and garage door and drapes and pool pump and security system, and so on. You want the automation system to be able to confirm positive control of these sorts of things, or raise an alarm if it cannot, or better yet to be able to retry it a few times and then raise an alarm if it cannot get it done.

I'm also not convinced that scene control needs a central controller either. Having autonomous scene capabilities built within the memory of each device makes sense as we now have a grid network so to speak with no single point of failure

Again, you are thinking about just lights. If you want to the lights to dim in conjunction with bringing up the romantic music and mousing your hair and spritzing you with some aftershave, you need to have everything tied in through an overseeing control system. That doesn't mean that the lighting system (or any other subsystem for that matter) cannot still provide dedicated control interfaces, but if you want to create the whole as a 'system', then it needs to be under the control of one thing. That might not be the fundamental level of control, i.e there might be an Omni or Elk panel in there handling the most fundamental stuff, but you need something that sits on top of all those things to provide the house-wide coordination and monitoring.

 

[kwilcox]

Well, my system does HVAC and the garage door automation closes it if open when all lights out is signaled from my bedside controller. I'm quite impressed with the reliability of the garage door macro which is a simple magnetic switch coupled to a powerflash/universal combination. I've never had a failure. Remember, the state is confirmed each time the door is operated. HVAC didn't get reliable until I went UPB however and now I have a pretty much bulletproof system without so much as a dime spent on a high speed backend HA network. My home is my laboratory and the reliable parts filter out to my installations. The garage door macro as well as HVAC control do require a central controller option though which I'm getting pretty close to offering. My customers have been pretty satisified with peer based lighting control so far too. UPB will allow me to extend this pretty effectively. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a super intelligent HA system using a dedicated net. However, as an installer I differentiate between the "ultimate" system and what Home Depot would tend to offer.

 

[upstatemike]

So getting back to the original topic... It looks like Home Depot Guy wants a P2P lighting system he can install easily (and cheaply) but that is robust enough to integrate with a controller based system down the line after he (or she) is hooked on home automation. The most likely bridge for this integration might be some sort of software "glue" such as CQC. Is this where we are headed?

 

[kwilcox]

That's pretty much how I would envision it too.

 

[upstatemike]

I just looked at the UPB literature again. Apart from price (and no yellow LED level bar) it looks like UPB is pretty close to what Home Depot guy would buy.

 

[Rupp]

OK, how about ignoring existing technologies for a moment and just describe what might be an ideal system for a typical Home Depot customer. (Not necessarily what is ideal for this audience). If I am a typical HA novice I want to pay $35-$45 per switch for a super easy system with enough of a “wow†factor to catch my interest in the first place. I suggest the following features:

Let me tell you right now that the "typical" HomeDepot customer isn't going to pay anything near $35 per switch. :lol:

 

[upstatemike]

That was was just a guess based on pricing I had seen there for things like Heath motion switches etc. I really don't know what makes a "typical" home Depot shopper tick. Hopefully 1audio does.

 

[HAL_MAN]

I will just quickly chime in on upb. I have used z-wave, x10, and a insteon starter kit.
Compared to all the rest. UPB blew me away in ease and power of programming (very switch centric). But what really took my breath away was its ability to get a good signal across a really dirty power line (like 20 Large floresecnt ballasts and many APC ups's running). Even across two phases in a large warehouse unit with no coupler the signal stayed strong.
They seem to have a few milliseconds faster response time then z-wave. And there ability to be a dimmer or a relay makes them very flexible.
If the price comes down, which I believe it will have too because of insteon's resonable pricing structure. If they do not come down soon they may be left behind. But that would be a shame. As it is the nicest automation switch I have ever used. (Thus far.)
Kind Regards,
Shawn Walsh

 

[Homeautomationsales]

Audio1 I would be happy to help you in your search for further HA info/knowledge.

I have extensive experience in the HA business ( 20+ years) as well as contacts that can help you judge, review and explore the technologies available in the HA arena.

This knowledge involves actual direct experience in the HA sales and marketing arena, including past history of retail sales and marketing activities, this would also include successes and failures at retail.

 

[Bruce L]

From all the reports I've heard on UPB it seems to be a great product. Automated Outlet has prolly the best price on them. I've not bought into it yet mostly because there is no controll from HS yet. It would be nice if the price came down more and it might to more closer match insteon.