Newbie questions about a HA system

[apostolakisl]

We'll see what happens with zwave. You may be right and it may catch on, but since it came out a few years ago I haven't seen it embraced. Maybe it is just the R and D time or whatever and in the next year it takes off. I've heard there are limits with size of installations, but I really don't know for sure. I know that Insteon has no limit to installation size, at least none that you could hit in a home.

I really think SH has got the QC issues worked out in the last two years. I started replacing all of my devices about 4 years ago. For the first two years I was replacing crap with crap. In the last 2 years I haven't had a single problem with any device they have shipped. I just replaced my last 5 "old" switches and had a party! I have rougly 60 switches and have installed all of them at least once and many twice. I am an R & R expert chaging out 5 at a time every few months (I would have had a nervous breakdown if a box with 60 all came at once). And I did mean stuff like wire them hot and install them in my kids room where they think turning on a light means running over and smashing it with your fist! (probably habbit from the old crappy switches).

I haven't really heard anything from users of the dual band Insteon. If you had a full install of dual band, I would be curious to know if noise was a complete non-issue. Noise has not been a big issue for me in my home, I have a total of 2 filters.


UPB/ISY is a nice sounding combo, however.

 

[JTR7]

Top notch for quality is probably RadioRA2. However, that gets pricier. If you're looking for the pin axle of reliability and looks, however, the cost may be worth it.

How far will you take this? Is lighting the first step and someday you'll want security and temperature also integrated? Because planning ahead can save you money down the road. If you choose something that won't be capable enough in the future, you may be slapping yourself when you have to toss the old controller and programming for a new one.

 

[IndyMike]

I used an ISY to try and save my $4000 Insteon investment. The ISY was new at the time but it was worth every penny (now it has matured significantly and I am dieing to get my hands on the UPB version). In the end I ripped out all of the Insteon devices since one died every few days etc and replaced them with UPB. Years later and I have never had to replace a UPB device. The ISY for UPB is going Beta this month so it should probably be out Q1 of 2011 (that is my guess not a fact). The ISY/UPB combination will be a very big hit in my opinion and I would guess more people will jump away from Insteon if SH has another round of quality issues etc.

I have to disagree with you on Zwave. More and more manufacturers are investing in it. Where I work we are about ready to sink some serious cash into it in 2011's budget. Zwave will go somewhere with all of the new products being developed that you are probably not aware of. Several high volume alarm manufacturers (one being where I work) will have built in Zwave capabilities in the near future (I believe one up and coming manufacturer already has).

Are Insteon dimmers cheaper than UPB? Definitely!! About $20 each. Maybe if SH put about $5 to $10 more into each switch (basically doubling their cost to produce it) they could probably address most of their QC problems and still be cheaper. But if you subtract the cost of all of the filters and accesspoints you have to buy the cost difference is not that significant.

Hello Digger,

A few minor points:

1) Accesspoints are not required for Insteon to function correctly. Phase coupling typically is required. A passive phase coupler (X10) at the load panel will couple the phases quite well for Insteon. These are available for $25 and lower.

2) Accesspoints are required for RF to powerline (and reverse) transmission. A two pack of Accesspoints is roughly the same cost as a UPB phase coupler.

3) With the advent of dual band devices (PLM, LampLincs, Wired in switches, and wired 240V devices), the use of Accesspoints may disappear.

4) As Lou mentioned above, the use of filters is a varied topic. Like Lou, I have 1 filter installed in my home. it's a 20A wired in version on my basement circuit - HA PC(s), server, etc. This is required for my X10 system - may not be required for Insteon (I've never tried pulling the filter). UPB filters (if one is required) appear to be less available and a bit more expensive than the X10 units.

One of the nice features that the UPB PIM does bring to the table is the Upstart Signal Quality/Noise measurement feature. While the ISY99 does have some troubleshooting capabilities, there is currently no direct method of measuring Insteon Signal levels and relative noise. Users are left using X10 troubleshooting tools (ELK, testerlinc, etc) if communication problems arise.

One of the areas that I have focused on recently is the use of Dimmable CFL's. I use these for outdoor entry lights and dim them after a certain hour. At times, I noted that the connected switch would become un-responsive. Communications to other units was fine, only the switches attached to the Dimmable CFL were affected. Through trial and error I learned that I could not dim the CFL's below 35% without the induced noise overcoming the switch.

While I understood that lower Dim levels would create Impulse noise "closer" to the 60 Hz zero crossing (location where Insteon communicates), I didn't understand why the problem would be so variable. I set up a test using my basement "game room" using 8 16W dimmable CFL's on a Keypadlinc Dimmer.

Edit: Left out some description on the first past-
The following plots were generated using a ACT Scope2 adapter and an oscilloscope. The Scope2 adapter accomplishes 2 functions:
1) Channel 1 (Yellow)- filters out the 60 Hz powerline content so that the communication frequencies and noise can be focused on. The is essentially a bandpass filter which is centered on the X10 120 Khz range.
2) Channel 2 (Pink)- performs a 10:1 division of the 120 Vrms powerline voltage so that it is compatible with the oscilloscope input.


Baseline Powerline Noise (Load Off)
Shows 1/2 Powerline cycle (Pink) and an 80mv noise impulse - from a dimmer somewhere else.

Incandescent Load (8 - 65W) at 100%
Scope triggered at 3.45 V. Spike is occurring after the rising edge of the 60 Hz powerline and is comfortably outside the communication window.

CFL Load (8 - 16W) at 100%
Scope triggered at 40 V (max trigger level for my scope). Spike is occurring after the rising edge of the 60 Hz powerline and is outside the communication window. There are, however, other resonances being injected.

CFL Load (8 - 16W) at 24%
Scope triggered at 40 V (max trigger level for my scope). Spike has moved to the opposite side of the 60 Hz half cycle. The spike is occurring prior to the communication window, but resonances are within the window.

CFL Load (8 - 16W) at 24%- 1 hour later
Scope triggered at 40 V (max trigger level for my scope). Beginning to see some significant resonances from the CFL's. Over 4V P-P noise within the communication window. FFT indicates there is 130 Khz content.

Note: The switch was still completely functional at this point.

Conclusions:
1) While the initial impulse is of a high level (>>40V) it is outside the communication window and doesn't appear to upset things.

2) Resonances after the impulse do enter the communication window and do contain 130 Khz content.

3) Resonances change with time and temperature of the individual attached CFL's. No mystery why my outdoor CFLs show a high degree of variability.

4) For dimmers in general - a dim level in the 50% range places the impulse at the peak of the 60 Hz waveform. This gives maximum spacing to the communication windows and maximum noise immunity.

Other: I mentioned that there was significant frequency content in the 130 Khz range. There was also content below 40 Khz (UPB communication range). I'm curious whether Upstart would detect and report noise levels for the above.

Has anyone tried Upstart with dimmable CFL's?

 

[Digger]

I used an ISY to try and save my $4000 Insteon investment. The ISY was new at the time but it was worth every penny (now it has matured significantly and I am dieing to get my hands on the UPB version). In the end I ripped out all of the Insteon devices since one died every few days etc and replaced them with UPB. Years later and I have never had to replace a UPB device. The ISY for UPB is going Beta this month so it should probably be out Q1 of 2011 (that is my guess not a fact). The ISY/UPB combination will be a very big hit in my opinion and I would guess more people will jump away from Insteon if SH has another round of quality issues etc.

I have to disagree with you on Zwave. More and more manufacturers are investing in it. Where I work we are about ready to sink some serious cash into it in 2011's budget. Zwave will go somewhere with all of the new products being developed that you are probably not aware of. Several high volume alarm manufacturers (one being where I work) will have built in Zwave capabilities in the near future (I believe one up and coming manufacturer already has).

Are Insteon dimmers cheaper than UPB? Definitely!! About $20 each. Maybe if SH put about $5 to $10 more into each switch (basically doubling their cost to produce it) they could probably address most of their QC problems and still be cheaper. But if you subtract the cost of all of the filters and accesspoints you have to buy the cost difference is not that significant.

Hello Digger,

A few minor points:

1) Accesspoints are not required for Insteon to function correctly. Phase coupling typically is required. A passive phase coupler (X10) at the load panel will couple the phases quite well for Insteon. These are available for $25 and lower.

2) Accesspoints are required for RF to powerline (and reverse) transmission. A two pack of Accesspoints is roughly the same cost as a UPB phase coupler.

3) With the advent of dual band devices (PLM, LampLincs, Wired in switches, and wired 240V devices), the use of Accesspoints may disappear.

4) As Lou mentioned above, the use of filters is a varied topic. Like Lou, I have 1 filter installed in my home. it's a 20A wired in version on my basement circuit - HA PC(s), server, etc. This is required for my X10 system - may not be required for Insteon (I've never tried pulling the filter). UPB filters (if one is required) appear to be less available and a bit more expensive than the X10 units.

One of the nice features that the UPB PIM does bring to the table is the Upstart Signal Quality/Noise measurement feature. While the ISY99 does have some troubleshooting capabilities, there is currently no direct method of measuring Insteon Signal levels and relative noise. Users are left using X10 troubleshooting tools (ELK, testerlinc, etc) if communication problems arise.

One of the areas that I have focused on recently is the use of Dimmable CFL's. I use these for outdoor entry lights and dim them after a certain hour. At times, I noted that the connected switch would become un-responsive. Communications to other units was fine, only the switches attached to the Dimmable CFL were affected. Through trial and error I learned that I could not dim the CFL's below 35% without the induced noise overcoming the switch.

While I understood that lower Dim levels would create Impulse noise "closer" to the 60 Hz zero crossing (location where Insteon communicates), I didn't understand why the problem would be so variable. I set up a test using my basement "game room" using 8 16W dimmable CFL's on a Keypadlinc Dimmer.


Baseline Powerline Noise (Load Off)
Shows 1/2 Powerline cycle (Pink) and an 80mv noise impulse - from a dimmer somewhere else.

Incandescent Load (8 - 65W) at 100%
Scope triggered at 3.45 V. Spike is occurring after the rising edge of the 60 Hz powerline and is comfortably outside the communication window.

CFL Load (8 - 16W) at 100%
Scope triggered at 40 V (max trigger level for my scope). Spike is occurring after the rising edge of the 60 Hz powerline and is outside the communication window. There are, however, other harmonics being injected.

CFL Load (8 - 16W) at 24%
Scope triggered at 40 V (max trigger level for my scope). Spike has moved to the opposite side of the 60 Hz half cycle. The spike is occurring prior to the communication window, but harmonics are within the window.

CFL Load (8 - 16W) at 24%- 1 hour later
Scope triggered at 40 V (max trigger level for my scope). Beginning to see some significant resonances from the CFL's. Over 4V P-P noise within the communication window. FFT indicates there is 130 Khz content.

Note: The switch was still completely functional at this point.

Conclusions:
1) While the initial impulse is of a high level (>>40V) it is outside the communication window and doesn't appear to upset things.

2) Resonances after the impulse do enter the communication window and do contain 130 Khz content.

3) Resonances change with time and temperature of the individual attached CFL's. No mystery why my outdoor CFLs show a high degree of variability.

4) For dimmers in general - a dim level in the 50% range places the impulse at the peak of the 60 Hz waveform. This gives maximum spacing to the communication windows and maximum noise immunity.

Other: I mentioned that there was significant frequency content in the 130 Khz range. There was also content below 40 Khz (UPB communication range). I'm curious whether Upstart would detect and report noise levels for the above.

Has anyone tried Upstart with dimmable CFL's?

Your tests are only for CFL noise. What about UPS's, TV's, Computers etc that many times require filters. Look in SH forums about how many filters people have to install? Look how many times Tom F. the SH Rep/Moderator tells people that their problems must be noise and change the bulb or to add a filter. Is he misleading people and its not noise? Are their devices defective and not immune to the noise the way they should be?

if you read the forums Toms says on 11/3

"If trouble persists, check the load. Some fluorescent ballasts can make lots of power line noise, enough that the noise overwhelms valid signals. Noise is cumulative, so it is possible the switch's load alone isn't enough to make signals fail but when the load and some additional noisy device is on at the same time they kill valid signals. If the switch's load may be interfering, turn the Icon Relay off, click Add on the SmartLinc, then hold the set button on the Icon in for 3 seconds instead of the On paddle. If it adds to the scene this way and the SmartLinc can turn the scene on but not off, the issue is noise from the load--you can fix that by replacing the fixture or by isolating the load with a wire-in or plug-in signal filter."

on 10/29 he said

"Do you have any Icon modules or LampLincs or ApplianceLincs? If so, plug one in at the SmartLinc location and try linking that, first to the SmartLinc then to one of your Icon wall switches. The purpose is to determine if the problem is restricted to the SmartLinc or if some other device attached to your power line is causing sufficient noise to prevent linking. Between everything working and not, did you add any new fluorescent bulbs or computer power supplies to the house?"

on 10/27 he said

"If the electronics inside the CFL are introducing noise on your power line that resembles x10 signals, you might eventually be locking up the InLineLinc's processor. If the problem repeats, you may want to switch that for a different brand of CFL bulb."

on 10/20 he said

All of the above are possible causes. Another possibility is that other devices in the house that are used intermittently are creating noise that is interfering with signals. Do you have HouseLinc 2 that you could use for signal diagnostics?

10/17 he said

The load is most likely producing noise that is blocking signals from reaching the switch when the load is energized. You can test this by replacing the bulb with a standard incandescent and retesting. If that works, then you can either isolate the load with a filter or replace the load with a less-noisy alternative.

On 9/27 Skydvrz wrote

I had a printer, computer and camera battery charger that all produced Insteon-killing noise when "shut off". Unplugging them stopped my Insteon noise problems. Installing FilterLincs fixed the problem so that I could still use the appliances.

From the Smarthome website in numerous places where they sell UPB devices:

"UPB benefits include its higher reliability, since its signal strength is stronger than X10, with increased electrical noise resistance."


I could go on and on with examples where people are told that noise is a problem on their Insteon setup by SH. With UPB you dont often see these issues. I have dimmable CFL's in my house (lots) , more computers than I can count, 7 TV's, a bunch of UPS's etc and no problems and no filters. I dont have to worry about the brand of CFL I can buy whatever is available and just use them.

 

[IndyMike]

Your tests are only for CFL noise. What about UPS's, TV's, Computers etc that many times require filters. Look in SH forums about how many filters people have to install? Look how many times Tom F. the SH Rep/Moderator tells people that their problems must be noise and change the bulb or to add a filter. Is he misleading people and its not noise? Are their devices defective and not immune to the noise the way they should be?

Digger,

Not sure how Tom got drug into this??

1) Yes my tests involved CFL noise. Like you, I have a plethora of "other" electronics in my home - none of these devices appear to cause problems. The dimmable CFL's have caused problems on specific devices. That's why I focused my testing there.
2) I don't doubt for a second that "other people" have problems with troublesome loads affecting their Insteon systems. Unfortunately, most of these people do not live on my block - I can't walk over and plug my scope in. As a result, I (and others) resort to common troubleshooting techniques like suggesting that the load be changed or a filter added. Sometimes it's a good guess, but many times it is not. What it is, is a process to isolate a problem (more often multiple problems). Citing posts at random because the word "filter" is mentioned is taking that process apart and holds little validity. You could just as well accuse me of proposing that people buy filters because it improves SH's profit margin.

Specifically, the testing involved CFL noise using multiple bulbs and low dim levels. I was seeking to accomplish the following:

1) Put actual numbers on the magnitude and type of noise that CFL's inject into the powerline. Yes, we know they can be a problem. I was trying to demonstrate why.
2) Explain (show) why low dim levels can be problematic for Insteon and other powerline communication.
3) Explain (show) why problems with CFL's appear to have a great deal of variability (resonances adding and producing harmonics based on bulb temperature and age).

My specific installation (dimmable CFL's on my entry lights) could easily be corrected by any of the following:

1) Replace the CFL with an Incandescent - power would increase 5x during the 100% on hours.
2) Replace the dimmer switch with a Relay unit - this would eliminate the noise problem, but leads to "light pollution" which I also do not like.
3) Replace the dimmable CFL's with Purespectrum Dimmable CFL's - I have two units on order. Thanks to KenM for posting about these.
4) Replace the dimmer switch with a dual band dimmer - have one of these on it's way. The unit should be able to communicate via RF even with a noisy load. I regard this as a "patch" - not a real solution. Nonetheless I'm curious how it will perform.

Of the above, I view the Purespectrum bulbs as the only real fix for this problem. I'm extremely curious how these high PF/low THD bulbs will perform outside in a multiple bulb configuration.

Beyond the above, I was asking if UPB users had tried using Upstart to measure dimmable CFL noise. As I stated, my Elk and Testerlinc tools do not pick up the CFL noise reliably. If Upstart could be used to detect the noise, I could envision a troubleshooting setup consisting of a PIM and a plug-in UPB unit.

My apologies to the OP for taking this thread off the tracks. I should have picked a new thread for presenting the noise data.

IM

 

[oberkc]

My apologies to the OP for taking this thread off the tracks. I should have picked a new thread for presenting the noise data.

This thread has long-ago ceased to be of any use to the OP. I certainly have not seen any post from him beyond the original.

 

[Digger]

Your tests are only for CFL noise. What about UPS's, TV's, Computers etc that many times require filters. Look in SH forums about how many filters people have to install? Look how many times Tom F. the SH Rep/Moderator tells people that their problems must be noise and change the bulb or to add a filter. Is he misleading people and its not noise? Are their devices defective and not immune to the noise the way they should be?

Digger,

Not sure how Tom got drug into this??

1) Yes my tests involved CFL noise. Like you, I have a plethora of "other" electronics in my home - none of these devices appear to cause problems. The dimmable CFL's have caused problems on specific devices. That's why I focused my testing there.
2) I don't doubt for a second that "other people" have problems with troublesome loads affecting their Insteon systems. Unfortunately, most of these people do not live on my block - I can't walk over and plug my scope in. As a result, I (and others) resort to common troubleshooting techniques like suggesting that the load be changed or a filter added. Sometimes it's a good guess, but many times it is not. What it is, is a process to isolate a problem (more often multiple problems). Citing posts at random because the word "filter" is mentioned is taking that process apart and holds little validity. You could just as well accuse me of proposing that people buy filters because it improves SH's profit margin.

Specifically, the testing involved CFL noise using multiple bulbs and low dim levels. I was seeking to accomplish the following:

1) Put actual numbers on the magnitude and type of noise that CFL's inject into the powerline. Yes, we know they can be a problem. I was trying to demonstrate why.
2) Explain (show) why low dim levels can be problematic for Insteon and other powerline communication.
3) Explain (show) why problems with CFL's appear to have a great deal of variability (resonances adding and producing harmonics based on bulb temperature and age).

My specific installation (dimmable CFL's on my entry lights) could easily be corrected by any of the following:

1) Replace the CFL with an Incandescent - power would increase 5x during the 100% on hours.
2) Replace the dimmer switch with a Relay unit - this would eliminate the noise problem, but leads to "light pollution" which I also do not like.
3) Replace the dimmable CFL's with Purespectrum Dimmable CFL's - I have two units on order. Thanks to KenM for posting about these.
4) Replace the dimmer switch with a dual band dimmer - have one of these on it's way. The unit should be able to communicate via RF even with a noisy load. I regard this as a "patch" - not a real solution. Nonetheless I'm curious how it will perform.

Of the above, I view the Purespectrum bulbs as the only real fix for this problem. I'm extremely curious how these high PF/low THD bulbs will perform outside in a multiple bulb configuration.

Beyond the above, I was asking if UPB users had tried using Upstart to measure dimmable CFL noise. As I stated, my Elk and Testerlinc tools do not pick up the CFL noise reliably. If Upstart could be used to detect the noise, I could envision a troubleshooting setup consisting of a PIM and a plug-in UPB unit.

My apologies to the OP for taking this thread off the tracks. I should have picked a new thread for presenting the noise data.

IM

For the record I would say you are probably one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to Insteon and PLC noise. I give you a lot of credit for spending do much time researching it.

Unfortunately (actually fortunately) I do not ever see noise in upstart (to the point I doubted it worked). To find out if it worked I left it running for days once and it did not record anything other than one or two momentary level 1 noise levels (1 is practiically nothing and with the strong signals of UPB no concern as far as operation). I have no idea what created the noise of the tens of thousands of samplings it took over several days. A guess may have been a large load kicking in.

The reason I posted about Tom is that he insists that anything wrong can usually be related to noise and require filters. But other protocals UPB and Zwave etc are not affected anywhere near as much as Insteon. So people have to buy filters or change their CFL's and TV's and Computers. A very expensive way to correct the inherent problems with Insteon (and X-10). Look at how many hours you have spent trying to maintain your Insteon system. I have gone many months without changing anything or investigating anything with UPB (I will in a few weeks when I add some holiday lights but at least that is fun). Its like the commercials say for Ronco "just set it and forget it"

Even Smarthome's website states that UPB is more immune to noise and has a stronger signal and that is probably why they sell it also.

Sorry you have to replace your CFL's to eliminate noise. That is a nuisance and an extra unnecessary cost that often comes with Insteon. Hopefully you will like the new bulbs. I am just glad those problems are way behind me since I made the switch to UPB. Obviously there are some people somewhere that have had or could have problems with UPB but it seems that they are fewer and far between.

Good luck with the new bulbs I hope they work out for you.

 

[nickp2001]

It seems that everyone is suggesting UPB. If I were to go with UPB, what equipment should I buy to be able to control my landscape lighting, with total expandability for the future?

I have 4 transformers hooked up to 4 outdoor GFCI outlets...

 

[pete_c]

Nick,

Maybe a hassle but I installed my commercial transformers in the house worrying that the weather would eventually do them in. With the indoor setup I have them all located near one area of the utility part of the basement and have separated out the circuits (each have their own breaker) and use one appliance module per transformer. I have my landscaping wire runs in various labeled zones such that I can shift around the wires easily.

Other than putting a relay outside I am not familiar with an Outdoor UPB module. You could though put a UPB outlet in a double gang outdoor box; allowing both the GFCI and UPB outlet in the box. My on/off scheduled event is just a XX minutes after sunset turn on WW, XX, YY, ZZ landscaping appliance modules all on one line or one command; same with them going off and security events. "After hours" outdoor motion triggers every outdoor light on (including all landscaping lighting) daylight like. The off hours lighting is 100% versus the regular scheduled lighting of about 30% (coach lights).

 

[Neurorad]

Sorry if I missed it, but are those outdoor GFCI outlets controlled by switches inside? Can you add switches, maybe near the 'home run' location of the circuit(s)?

 

[pete_c]

I did that in my old home for the Christmas lighting. In the current home I just utilize "outdoor" powerline switches once a year for the holiday decorating. I have added more outdoor GFCI outlets though none them connected to switches.

IE: Relating to uniquely placed GFCI outlets with interior switches with their only function being holiday lighting. Today the neighbor has a similiar configuration with multiple GFCI switches mounted near his eaves for holiday lighting. I guess the same would work for landscaping lighting.