Pre wire for home automation

[apostolakisl]

picta - you bring up a good point regarding the selling of a home and the DIY systems included therein.  I think Lutron's RadioRa 2 is a wireless system that would be able to be kept in due to the fact that it isn't really meant to be a DIY system.
 
David

 
 
That isn't the point.  "meant to be diy" does not have anything to do with anything.  The logic you are using would say that everything that they sell at home depot would make a house unsellable because it is meant for diy.  While in fact, all of those things are used both by diy and pros.
 
Virtually everything that you would use to build a house is "offered as diy".  A few things are not offered as diy, but this has to do strictly with the companies marketing, warranty, and service strategy.  It doesn't have a darn thing to do with liability or resell of the home.

 

[apostolakisl]

I think we are highjacking this thread. The original poster specifically asked about hard-wired systems and I wanted to share information that could help with decisions. But to answer your question, yes, I had automated with Insteon and z-wave in my previous residences. I am happy for you and others who are satisfied with their Insteon products now, but I was one of many early adopters that the company used as free testers and I had spent thousands of dollars on Insteon devices that I had to throw out in the garbage. I use zwave now for my door locks, and the system goes blank with error 12 every two weeks, but can be restored with unplugging of VRC0P. Not a big deal for some, but I want my devices to work all the time. What you cannot do with Insteon and other retrofit products is to have any switch to control any load or scene. You have to have at least one switch to be directly wired to a load to be controllable. I don't have more than 2 gang switch boxes installed anywhere, but some people have 12 in a row, matter of personal preference.

 
The original poster is admittedly very green in this department.  I would not want someone to tell me how to use a hardwired system just because I suggested I would pull LV wire control to my light switches if I had no idea there were other ways.  The fact is that of all the automated lighting that exists in this country, almost none of it is hardwire controlled, and for good reasons.

 

[dgage]

I think that particular point was aimed towards maintainability. It's like a pool, some would love to buy a house with one and others would not. Sometimes the negative reaction is due to kids but others don't want the expense or work of maintaining a pool. Same thing for extensive automation in a house. Even though I could maintain a HA system, I might get to the point where I don't want to anymore. If you have a UPB or Zwave system, you will have a harder time finding a professional that will want to take the time to figure out what you did. Or they know how flaky those systems can be sometimes and wouldn't want the headache of taking a homeowners call on a Saturday night. A complete system such as RadioRa, Homeworks, Control4, Crestron, Centralite, or other more commercial oriented systems would be easier to maintain and presumably more robust, which was more of my point about not being "DIY" oriented. Regardless of the viewpoint, it is a good idea to consider future maintainability when considering such a pervasive and expensive system.

David

 

[apostolakisl]

I think that particular point was aimed towards maintainability. It's like a pool, some would love to buy a house with one and others would not. Sometimes the negative reaction is due to kids but others don't want the expense or work of maintaining a pool. Same thing for extensive automation in a house. Even though I could maintain a HA system, I might get to the point where I don't want to anymore. If you have a UPB or Zwave system, you will have a harder time finding a professional that will want to take the time to figure out what you did. Or they know how flaky those systems can be sometimes and wouldn't want the headache of taking a homeowners call on a Saturday night. A complete system such as RadioRa, Homeworks, Control4, Crestron, Centralite, or other more commercial oriented systems would be easier to maintain and presumably more robust, which was more of my point about not being "DIY" oriented. Regardless of the viewpoint, it is a good idea to consider future maintainability when considering such a pervasive and expensive system.

David

 
I have a friend who about 10 years ago bought a house with a non-diy system, I believe it was Creston.  On quite a number of occasions he expressed his displeasure with the system (expletive filled sentences might have been involved).  Service calls were always over $1000 every time he needed anything.  He was forced to pay this since the individual home owner was not supported . . . "we can't help you, please call your local dealer".  He could not even perform simple changes because he wasn't allowed to buy the software to program it.  Similarly, they wouldn't sell him hardware either.  Co's such as this license dealers in certain geographies.  You have no choice but to use that one company to service your system.  He sold the house in no small part because of the lighting.
 
I can also say for a fact that professionals do install Insteon, I am sure z-wave and UPB have similar installers.
 
A search of this forum for topics regarding the different systems will make it quite clear that almost all DIY'ers do not use a hardwired system.  Therefore I would highly suggest that the OP, being a DIY'er himself, sticks to the stuff other DIY'ers use and the stuff that he can therefore get abundant support for.

 

[dgage]

First, regarding the lighting system choice, there aren't many DIYers that are able to implement a hard-wired system. So even if the OP does implement a hard-wired system, he won't have the community support that really allows us to get the most out of a system and generally for many DIYers this becomes a (partial) hobby.

Sorry this is long but it goes through my mental process of choosing a lighting system and speaks to many of the things Lou mentioned.

I'm a DIYer and I was at the OPs point not so long ago. So I'll explain my thought process. I need a new home security system so I'll research the options. Oh, there's this great community at Cocoontech that does this cool automation. Ok, well I need a lighting system so let me research the best ones. Oh, I'm reading that people are having problems with Insteon, Zwave, UPB, pretty much every system out there has had one or more individuals with problems. Oh, I don't want that, I want something robust to run the lights in my house. Oh well let me look at hard-wired because nothing is more robust than that. Oh, you have to have a special wiring structure for that and my house is already built. Ok, so hard-wired is out for my situation. Ok, so lets look at some of the expensive ones because they have to be better right? Crestron is just damn expensive so that is out. Control4, while still being expensive, seems to have some good integration with some nice lighting choices. What do you mean I can't get access to the software and make changes myself. I'm not going to pay several hundred dollars a pop for a guy to change something minor on my system, no way. Dang, there are some people that were burnt by Control4 and really weren't happy after dropping $10K plus. OK, what other options. Main three are UPB, Zwave, and Insteon. Zigbee is still a little fractured (multiple profiles) so that is out. Insteon seems to have too many quality issues over time and we are beholden to a single company. Zwave seems to have issues for some people, especially with larger implementations. UPB seems to be pretty solid for the people using although some people had special situations that caused UPB not to work. Ok, UPB would likely be robust in my situation. Those are my switch options, really? Oh and those are the same switch options for the past 4-5 years. That's disappointing. Ok what else. Lutron RadioRa 2. That looks good but it's another closed system where you can't get the software. Well, actually you can get the software but you have to jump through a couple hoops and take some training courses. That's not bad. Research shows RadioRa 2 being very robust with the only major DIY complaints being hoops for software and expense. Well, it is expensive but they make solid switches and the options are much more elegant and up to date than other options available to the DIY community. Ok, let me take the training and see what I think. Liked the training and like the system even more now. Ok, I've finally chosen my lighting system...now what home automation package should I purchase? .....

Now regarding maintainability, if I mention RadioRa 2 or a hard-wired Centralite system, a knowledgeable person (professional) would have a good understanding of the equipment involved and a good starting point of figuring out the system. With a Zwave or UPB based solution you have to ask many more clarifying questions (controller? brand of switches? Etc) before a pro would understand what is involved with supporting a homeowners solution. I'm not saying one is better than the other just pointing out this fact.

David

 

[apostolakisl]

First, regarding the lighting system choice, there aren't many DIYers that are able to implement a hard-wired system. So even if the OP does implement a hard-wired system, he won't have the community support that really allows us to get the most out of a system and generally for many DIYers this becomes a (partial) hobby.

Sorry this is long but it goes through my mental process of choosing a lighting system and speaks to many of the things Lou mentioned.

I'm a DIYer and I was at the OPs point not so long ago. So I'll explain my thought process. I need a new home security system so I'll research the options. Oh, there's this great community at Cocoontech that does this cool automation. Ok, well I need a lighting system so let me research the best ones. Oh, I'm reading that people are having problems with Insteon, Zwave, UPB, pretty much every system out there has had one or more individuals with problems. Oh, I don't want that, I want something robust to run the lights in my house. Oh well let me look at hard-wired because nothing is more robust than that. Oh, you have to have a special wiring structure for that and my house is already built. Ok, so hard-wired is out for my situation. Ok, so lets look at some of the expensive ones because they have to be better right? Crestron is just damn expensive so that is out. Control4, while still being expensive, seems to have some good integration with some nice lighting choices. What do you mean I can't get access to the software and make changes myself. I'm not going to pay several hundred dollars a pop for a guy to change something minor on my system, no way. Dang, there are some people that were burnt by Control4 and really weren't happy after dropping $10K plus. OK, what other options. Main three are UPB, Zwave, and Insteon. Zigbee is still a little fractured (multiple profiles) so that is out. Insteon seems to have too many quality issues over time and we are beholden to a single company. Zwave seems to have issues for some people, especially with larger implementations. UPB seems to be pretty solid for the people using although some people had special situations that caused UPB not to work. Ok, UPB would likely be robust in my situation. Those are my switch options, really? Oh and those are the same switch options for the past 4-5 years. That's disappointing. Ok what else. Lutron RadioRa 2. That looks good but it's another closed system where you can't get the software. Well, actually you can get the software but you have to jump through a couple hoops and take some training courses. That's not bad. Research shows RadioRa 2 being very robust with the only major DIY complaints being hoops for software and expense. Well, it is expensive but they make solid switches and the options are much more elegant and up to date than other options available to the DIY community. Ok, let me take the training and see what I think. Liked the training and like the system even more now. Ok, I've finally chosen my lighting system...now what home automation package should I purchase? .....

Now regarding maintainability, if I mention RadioRa 2 or a hard-wired Centralite system, a knowledgeable person (professional) would have a good understanding of the equipment involved and a good starting point of figuring out the system. With a Zwave or UPB based solution you have to ask many more clarifying questions (controller? brand of switches? Etc) before a pro would understand what is involved with supporting a homeowners solution. I'm not saying one is better than the other just pointing out this fact.

David

 
 
Your thought process is valid.  
 
I have Insteon.  And yes, they had quality issues, but it really seems that they got past that about 4 years ago.  Of all the remote control light switch co's out there, Smarthome seems to be the most robust from an R and D standpoint.  They keep coming out with more gadgets every few months.  Like the smoke detector bridge just recently and the fan linc before that and the dual mode devices before that and so on.  So unless they have a bank that keeps throwing money at them for no good reason, they probably are financially OK.  Even if they did go bankrupt, it is likely someone would pick them up out of bankruptcy.
 
But I am also very excited about the ISY's development.  It is now adding z-wave compatibility simultaneous to being Insteon compatible.  Furthermore, they have expressed an interest in making a module for the Ube devices.  It would not require any new hardware since ISY is already IP capable, it would just be a firmware update, like the Elk module.
 
So, in short, I feel comfortable where things are and where they are going in the future.  I am not sure how the finances of these other co's stand, but it seems like a tough world to sell automatic lighting that must go in during construction.  Realizing that most homes are not custom and automatic lights are not going to fall into the "builder grade" world anytime soon.

 

[dgage]

Actually, Smarthome's marketing of Insteon is what started me down this expensive slippery slope but ultimately went in a different direction than Insteon.

I was definitely intrigued by the ISY but I didn't like the limitation of either Zwave or Zigbee since their controller only has one module port. Would UBE be another module requiring you to pick one or the other? I'm assuming that Universal Devices would come out with an updated, more modular controller if they start producing modules. I think without the ISY, the Elk probably isn't half as popular, well maybe not but UD has definitely contributed to Elk's success and vice versa.

I'm happy with where things are going but coming from the technology side, it is obvious that home automation is more about the home than technology. Meaning, things live in a house for much longer periods of time and so the industry doesn't move at as fast of a pace as some/most of us technology geeks would like. The Kickstarter effect has been interesting but until there is some more coordination and less fracturing (yet another cloud service) of custom solutions, it won't make a dent. But that too will change. Exciting times.

David

 

[apostolakisl]

Actually, Smarthome's marketing of Insteon is what started me down this expensive slippery slope but ultimately went in a different direction than Insteon.

I was definitely intrigued by the ISY but I didn't like the limitation of either Zwave or Zigbee since their controller only has one module port. Would UBE be another module requiring you to pick one or the other? I'm assuming that Universal Devices would come out with an updated, more modular controller if they start producing modules. I think without the ISY, the Elk probably isn't half as popular, well maybe not but UD has definitely contributed to Elk's success and vice versa.

I'm happy with where things are going but coming from the technology side, it is obvious that home automation is more about the home than technology. Meaning, things live in a house for much longer periods of time and so the industry doesn't move at as fast of a pace as some/most of us technology geeks would like. The Kickstarter effect has been interesting but until there is some more coordination and less fracturing (yet another cloud service) of custom solutions, it won't make a dent. But that too will change. Exciting times.

David

 
As I mentioned, Ube would be a module since it is all IP.  There is no radio, the zwave vs zigbee but not both is because they both have their own radio and ISY can only take one radio at once.  But I have to wonder how many different things you would want running all at once anyway.  Zwave plus Insteon is a whole lot of stuff.  
 
You could control Ube devices as is using the generic network module that already exists (assuming Ube actually comes to market).  The module would build custom ube controls directly into the programming interface making it more streamlined.

 

[tigger88zx7]

Thanks for all the response. I guess I really want reliability but cost is always an issues. I have done some research on the issues and items you guys have posted and it was very interesting. I will do more research but for now I will try to run all the cables to as many location as I can & just hope that I have covered everything. I will get back for more advise as to the plan and the software used. If theres anything else that I might be missing that is not mention in this section PLEASE let me know.  

 

[electron]

Don't forget to look at the guide I posted, it's dedicated to prewiring the house, making it as future-proof as possible